5.4 Trinkets

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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Slootbag » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:34 pm

Dael wrote:Thok may be a sort of decent option, perhaps meh at best.


Idk, I see Thok's as a pretty amazing trinket, even with it's nerfs. It plays to Paladin's for every single bonus, especially if/when there will be a shift to EF. DPS increase is just icing on the cake. For a 4P BiS build (see my other post), ~1700 haste, ~1000 mastery, crit healing added to our EF, and a str proc? Yes please! That's about 2700 static rating on a trinket, slightly above 580ilvl budget of other trinkets with static stats by about 200 rating.
Also the CD reduction trinket (vial) is undeniably good as well for obvious reasons, DP being a big one.
The life steal was bugged and might be better when fixed, especially in aoe or high vengeance situations.

I don't personally see a spot for T15 trinkets in a T16 BiS list just to squeeze out some more haste. The T16 trinkets are actually quite good imo, not to mention the unfortunate nerfs as you said to T15 trinkets.

Also, Thok's is 9% in 2/2 h-wf I believe, not 8%.

I'm surprised honestly there hasn't also been consideration given yet to two other trinkets. With a 'thinking outside the box' mentality, I'm fairly confident 2 caster trinkets are strong considerations in our 2nd trinket slot for mitigation builds.
Since I'm a Thok's advocate, why not goes balls out and use the caster amp trinket too (Purified Bindings of Immerseus)? Literally the same thing with an Int proc. Yeah obviously int isn't ideal, but at least it has use with increasing spell crit, which means EF crits and some offensive crits too. That's another ~2800 rating worth of static rating for haste/mastery, with yet another bonus to crit damage/healing. That's a pretty big deal in my books, and consequently gets you right about to haste cap based on that 4P build I posted.
The second option is Black Blood of Y'shaarj. 2520 static haste rating for 580ilvl, so if you want your haste, there you go. It has a feather's style stacking int RPPM proc. With respect to int, see previous paragraph, yes it actually has uses.

Just some thoughts...

Edit: Added stuff after the thok 9% line.
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Dael » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:45 am

Well a BiS build is all well and good, but if it only becomes really a clear winner above other trinkets (heroic tf Spark for one and most likely the stamina trinkets otherwise) at that point then it sort of shows how lacklustre it is in my opinion.

Gear is fairly useless if you can't actually utilise it for progression (and since this is the last raid of the expansion, it's unlikely to prove useful beyond SoO as well) and from an academic point of view being able to test different builds/specs/gear in a live environment once you're just farming the content could prove interesting but otherwise doesn't serve a lot.

While EF builds seem to be building some steam in the community leading up to the release of 5.4, testing them with gear that you'll unlikely have access to when you need it (who would give a prot paladin healing trinkets over a healer?) may lead to builds which could be plausible but only at a fairly basic level.

EF is a powerful tool in the right situation but I'd guess that you will perhaps lose too much of your own survivability spending DP procs on healing than keeping up SoR, the bonus healing on the caster is obviously a big part of it's new appeal alongside the nerfs to SS.

My question would be whether the loss of that would demean it's efficiency compared to just using WoG on the raid in the same situations you'd use EF, spot healing with WoG currently doesn't generate that much overall healing but can save people just because of the burst. Even if EF does more healing over the course of the fight, you may lose that ability to just keep someone alive from the tick or whatever of damage that kills them.
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby daishan » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:15 am

Dael wrote:My question would be whether the loss of that would demean it's efficiency compared to just using WoG on the raid in the same situations you'd use EF, spot healing with WoG currently doesn't generate that much overall healing but can save people just because of the burst. Even if EF does more healing over the course of the fight, you may lose that ability to just keep someone alive from the tick or whatever of damage that kills them.


Doesn't EF have the same instant heal on cast as WoG it's just you gain the HoT part after the initial cast?
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Schroom » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:31 am

the instant heal on EF is even bigger than the WOG instaheal.
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Slootbag » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:40 pm

Dael wrote:Well a BiS build is all well and good, but if it only becomes really a clear winner above other trinkets (heroic tf Spark for one and most likely the stamina trinkets otherwise) at that point then it sort of shows how lacklustre it is in my opinion.

Gear is fairly useless if you can't actually utilise it for progression (and since this is the last raid of the expansion, it's unlikely to prove useful beyond SoO as well) and from an academic point of view being able to test different builds/specs/gear in a live environment once you're just farming the content could prove interesting but otherwise doesn't serve a lot.

While EF builds seem to be building some steam in the community leading up to the release of 5.4, testing them with gear that you'll unlikely have access to when you need it (who would give a prot paladin healing trinkets over a healer?) may lead to builds which could be plausible but only at a fairly basic level.

EF is a powerful tool in the right situation but I'd guess that you will perhaps lose too much of your own survivability spending DP procs on healing than keeping up SoR, the bonus healing on the caster is obviously a big part of it's new appeal alongside the nerfs to SS.


It doesn't though, I'm fairly confident the amp trinket (for example) in it's normal ilvl provides about 1100-1200 haste and about 400-500 mastery, for current gear levels (not to mentioned the crit portion), and is roughly as good as h-tf spark (just slightly behind on base stats), especially with the incoming nerf to spark and to RPPM. And toss in the use of EF and it pulls ahead not to mention that it will scale way better with increasing gear, which is a big part of progression. It especially plays to EF, not the other way around. You don't need amp trinkets to make use of EF (or frankly any new gear, the buffs to EF and nerfs to SS speak for themselves almost next tier).

Also not sure what healing trinkets you're talking about, nothing was proposed for healing. What I said was a caster trinket(s), and given what the trinket it is (it's passive stats), it's not ludicrously out of line to request that trinket over a strength trinket, which we've been using in place of normal tank trinkets basically the whole expansion. The only difference is an int proc instead of a str one. Int still gives us some form of benefit, especially with EF. Also not sure what you were referring to with "the bonus healing on the caster is obviously", which caster thing?

Even without 4P (and Theck even just recently posted on this too with his SimC) EF is worth it. Using EF every 30s instead of SotR (without 4PT16) is in no way losing too much survivability, especially with a DP haste build.

Dael wrote:My question would be whether the loss of that would demean it's efficiency compared to just using WoG on the raid in the same situations you'd use EF, spot healing with WoG currently doesn't generate that much overall healing but can save people just because of the burst. Even if EF does more healing over the course of the fight, you may lose that ability to just keep someone alive from the tick or whatever of damage that kills them.


What Schroom said, EF has WoG built in essentially.
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Promdates » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:37 am

Whats your opinion on the cool down reduction trinket?
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Lid » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:02 am

I think the cooldown reduction trinket will be pretty useful through early progression, while most of us are still wearing 4pc T15. While it interacts negatively with the 2pc T16 (for balance reasons I suppose), I don't believe we get that kind of interaction with the T15 bonus. At least I'm banking on that not being a thing.

Between the cooldown reduction trinket and Rook's Unlucky Talisman (frontal cone AoE is apparently the boss mechanic of the month - but maybe I'm giving it too much credit because I haven't checked logs to see what exactly it does yet), I'm brushing awfully close to a million HP with pure haste gemming.
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby daishan » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:54 am

Lid wrote:While it interacts negatively with the 2pc T16


What do you mean by that?
I know the HoT from the T16 2pc gets cut in half if we talent unbreakable spirit, does it also get reduced by another 20% if we use the cd trinket?

Personally I think the trinket is damn strong, imo the best survivability trinket and a solid dps trinket.
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Lid » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:56 am

Ah maybe I was confusing it with the talent then. Still haven't got logs so I can't be completely sure.

But if it doesn't interact in any way, then I can see the trinket being just completely stronk.
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby daishan » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:07 am

Even if the trinket does reduce the healing from the T16 HoT I don't think it has much effect on the trinkets value, as the HoT is relatively small plus if we use DP on cd we'll get the same total healing.
With DP at 30 sec cd I'm already very close to just using it on cd, with only a 24 sec cd I'll be getting tempted to just macro it into CS :p (I joke but not by much)
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Agamemnan » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:57 am

Slootbag wrote:The life steal was bugged and might be better when fixed, especially in aoe or high vengeance situations.


What was the bug? Has it been fixed?
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby daishan » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:25 pm

Think the bug reduced the heal by 50%, I think it got fixed but not certain.
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Slootbag » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:31 pm

Even so that trinket is really weak.

Assume a 250K DPS scenario, that's in the rough area of 7K HPS from that trinket, nothing to write home about.
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby mosaique » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:06 pm

What is the consensus on the 535 trinkets from the Timeless Isle, purchasable for 50k coins? Coming from one bad 522 trinket (Delicate Vial of the Sanguinaire) and a decent 489 trinket (Lei Shen's Final Orders), are they worth getting and which one? I plan to tank SoO 10 man normals.

I realize haste is superior but I have 50k coins and want to see if those trinkets would be an upgrade. Thank you!
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Thels » Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:36 am

If you're still running around with a 489 trinket, the upgrade might be worth it, or you might take the DPS version for added DPS.

I bought the tanking one on my DK, because her trinkets were crappy (replaced a 502 trinket). On my paladin, I had a 535 Spark and some 522 trinkets, so I didn't bother.
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Schroom » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:58 am

Slootbag wrote:Even so that trinket is really weak.

Assume a 250K DPS scenario, that's in the rough area of 7K HPS from that trinket, nothing to write home about.



I can sign this. I got it on flex yesterday. and my raidleader meant (a lot of progression tanks are using this) and I was wondering why... I tried it on Juggernaut Heroic progression and it was only about 2-3% more selfheal.

it averaged out at 985.1 Heal per hit and 48.9% overheal with 106k DPS average (including P2 where I do 0 DPS)

so NOT worth it. Or at least I can't see the benefit. went back to fabled feather Heroic for now.
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Slootbag » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:50 am

Schroom wrote:
Slootbag wrote:Even so that trinket is really weak.

Assume a 250K DPS scenario, that's in the rough area of 7K HPS from that trinket, nothing to write home about.



I can sign this. I got it on flex yesterday. and my raidleader meant (a lot of progression tanks are using this) and I was wondering why... I tried it on Juggernaut Heroic progression and it was only about 2-3% more selfheal.

it averaged out at 985.1 Heal per hit and 48.9% overheal with 106k DPS average (including P2 where I do 0 DPS)

so NOT worth it. Or at least I can't see the benefit. went back to fabled feather Heroic for now.


Don't chew my head off if you see me with it on armory, I by chance got a 572 version and used it often for the sheer static gain for Haste, since I am swimming way too hard in Hit atm :(
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Schroom » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:53 am

Slootbag wrote:
Schroom wrote:
Slootbag wrote:Even so that trinket is really weak.

Assume a 250K DPS scenario, that's in the rough area of 7K HPS from that trinket, nothing to write home about.



I can sign this. I got it on flex yesterday. and my raidleader meant (a lot of progression tanks are using this) and I was wondering why... I tried it on Juggernaut Heroic progression and it was only about 2-3% more selfheal.

it averaged out at 985.1 Heal per hit and 48.9% overheal with 106k DPS average (including P2 where I do 0 DPS)

so NOT worth it. Or at least I can't see the benefit. went back to fabled feather Heroic for now.


Don't chew my head off if you see me with it on armory, I by chance got a 572 version and used it often for the sheer static gain for Haste, since I am swimming way too hard in Hit atm :(



was my only explanation as well. I simed myself with the Flex 2/2 version and came to the same conclusion. That it would be an "ok" choice if one has to much hit and looking for a replacement for the fabled feather.

I on the other hand are swimming in Exp.... which is why I have this Parry /stam gem in my cloak. that also confuses some players who check my armory ;-)
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:55 am

Where do you guys see that the CD reduc trinket and spec'ing Unbreak Spirit affects the HoT from the 2p?
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Winkle » Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:51 am

Are you asking if we should spam Divine Protection? The answers probably yes considering how short the CD becomes. You can cycle between having DP up and then having the heal tick on you almost constantly.

On Immerseus HC i used it 6x unglyphed to mitigate the corrosive blast, this resulted in just over 500k healing. I suspect glyphing it for harder hitting physical bosses and using it on CD would result in a significant amount of healing.
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby daishan » Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:17 am

I think Fenrir is referring to how the HoT from the T16 2p is reduced by 50% when we talent Unbreakable Spirit, I assume it still is but haven't checked it myself since late ptr.

As for if the CD trinket also reduces the HoT? I'm not sure never thought to check it on the ptr and despite almost all other strength and stam trinkets dropping neither me or my co tank have seen that one (or Thok's)

I'd guess the trinket won't reduce the HoT any further but even if it does it'll only be a few % and imo the trinket is still well worth it.
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:16 pm

Yea, Daishan, I was. It's interesting, but it makes sense that they'd have it nerf the heal from 2p with US speced. I think I was a bit too overthinking it when I first saw the post.
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