LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:24 am

Darielle wrote:
I've seen those guilds on some friends and I'm like, why is your RL stressing you so much if anyway you can't even clear normal? Having 1 more ilvl wont really make your guildies stand out of fire.


Can't fix people? Carry them with more numbers instead so that you limp across instead of wiping to 2% when you finally get to P3.

That's essentially what the entire point of item upgrades, raid nerfs, etc. is and the atmosphere that the majority of raiders experience anyway. Hell, that's the entire point of the "gear from lower difficulty modes" to begin with.

There's also a slight difference between "1 more ilvl" and "the gear once can get out of repeatedly farming LFR when unable to full clear Normal".


I think it will be funny when Flex raid leaders look at damage dealt vs healing taken numbers for baddies, run a simple utility calculation on the boss scaling effect, and then say "You are actively making this fight harder for us, we'd be better off with less people than with you here"
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:49 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Darielle wrote:
I've seen those guilds on some friends and I'm like, why is your RL stressing you so much if anyway you can't even clear normal? Having 1 more ilvl wont really make your guildies stand out of fire.


Can't fix people? Carry them with more numbers instead so that you limp across instead of wiping to 2% when you finally get to P3.

That's essentially what the entire point of item upgrades, raid nerfs, etc. is and the atmosphere that the majority of raiders experience anyway. Hell, that's the entire point of the "gear from lower difficulty modes" to begin with.

There's also a slight difference between "1 more ilvl" and "the gear once can get out of repeatedly farming LFR when unable to full clear Normal".


I think it will be funny when Flex raid leaders look at damage dealt vs healing taken numbers for baddies, run a simple utility calculation on the boss scaling effect, and then say "You are actively making this fight harder for us, we'd be better off with less people than with you here"


It will be interesting to see the tradeoff between the lower difficulty level vs the deadweight that increases boss health and damage..

Someone needs to write an addon for that.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Amirya » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:58 am

Thank you for volunteering!

:P
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:46 pm

my god that's genius

if I still raided I'd write it.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:11 pm

So, the addon would compare damage taken vs damage dealt, plus factor in the increase in boss health and damage done.

If I knew how to write it... (should also be written to judge healers as well).
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:48 pm

Sabindeus wrote:I think it will be funny when Flex raid leaders look at damage dealt vs healing taken numbers for baddies, run a simple utility calculation on the boss scaling effect, and then say "You are actively making this fight harder for us, we'd be better off with less people than with you here"

The same sociopolitical issues that prevent removal of under-performing people from friends-and-family raids still apply, whether norm, flex, or heroic. The people who gear and groom their toons will always make up for those who don't.

Take the 26 best players in the world, and you will have 1 guy who is the worst. Excluding him instead of one of the other 25 makes the raid slightly easier for everyone.

The tipping point is where you have so many people who are undergeared, underknowledged, or underskilled that the group is unable complete the encounter. As long as you can complete the encounter, does it really matter if you carry someone who's just learning the fight?

Flex should be balanced anticipating some better people will be there to help carry some worse people. Inventing an add-on to identify the worse will surely make the encounter easier for all concerned, but it will make it exponentially tougher to break into Flex PUGs for people who are learning the fight, or an undergeared alt, etc. who may be a future asset, but for now are a bit below average.

And of course such an add-on would have to quantify performance, which as we all know is equal for all classes on all fights... Oh wait. Well, if you're not an optimal class for the first boss, I am sure a PuG would be patient and let you continue to the next. Oh wait. And then I am sure a Flex PuG would respect the design goal of Flex to have a variety of people and would take people who are 90%-capable for the fight... Um, no. The people running it would be the "Link FlexScore in excess of 110% capable or no inv" type, whose personal FlexScore would be in the 80s. Don't you people remember the GearScore days?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:50 pm

Of course I remember the GearScore days, but in those days I was in a guild and didn't have to PUG things...

SO basically what you're saying is I should unleash this add-on on an unsuspecting world and watch it crumble? >:D
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:00 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Of course I remember the GearScore days, but in those days I was in a guild and didn't have to PUG things...

SO basically what you're saying is I should unleash this add-on on an unsuspecting world and watch it crumble? >:D

Well, the other side of the argument is that any Flex group with more than 10 people will be kicking the lowest DPS if they wipe, so you might as well quantify it so they have a consistent measuring stick to beat each other with.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:01 pm

halabar wrote:So, the addon would compare damage taken vs damage dealt, plus factor in the increase in boss health and damage done.

If I knew how to write it... (should also be written to judge healers as well).


I don't even think damage taken is necessary. Just (damage dealt) - (increase in boss health), normalized somehow. Probably

(damage dealt)/(encounter time)*(expected encounter length) - (increase in boss health).

Expected encounter length determined by a simple TTD measure (Boss Health / Raid DPS). Negative score means you're a liability.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:10 pm

Sounds a lot like Wins Above Replacement. Wonder if there could be an addon that could calculate it.

I mean, I know there's already a TDD addon, I love using it.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:17 am

But all the people that are that anal about the people they're raiding with, and put so much effort into checking stuff shouldn't be running Flex, they should be running normal at least.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Sagara » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:22 am

Well, it's not like being so focused on other's performance naturally implies you're good enough for Normals.
Granted, that specific demographic would be more at home ELSEWHERE, but hey!
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:23 am

But the addon in question would only really be useful for people who were borderline on defeating Flex bosses, which would mean they'd likely not be able to kill Normal.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Worldie » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:23 am

That's what you think Kysen. Remember Gear Score. People abuse such kind of scores, and will start demanding you a certain FlexScore before even inviting you.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Sagara » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:30 am

Or, to go back to some root theories:

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Give people an half-assed, or even a full-assed system, and they'll form the asshole - like a black hole, they'll drag all the light to them and devour it, leaving only darkness and despair.
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