LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:55 am

Seeing how Flex Garrosh wont be available till Oct 15, and LFR Garrosh a week later, I imagine the bemoaning of getting burnout will be somewhat quelled
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Flex » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:11 am

Doubt it
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Sagara » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:12 am

People NOT whining about something?

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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:58 pm

It was part snark. =P
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:45 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Seeing how Flex Garrosh wont be available till Oct 15, and LFR Garrosh a week later, I imagine the bemoaning of getting burnout will be somewhat quelled

I know that belittling people who see the burnout issue is the hip thing to do these days, but I fail to see why that wouldn't represent the beginning of the real burnout phase.

Is it your position that everyone will already have everything they need from the last wing of the raid before Oct. 22nd? While that may be true for you, I assure you my raid will not have seen Garrosh by then, much less had a kill. We'll still be running LFR and Flex to get the gear we need to get a Garrosh kill.

Even the ones that have cleared him each week will not mean everyone has everything they want/need. My raid has 12 Horridon kills (yes, we're quite slow, and started late), but the healing trinket has only dropped once. The axe from Jin'Rokh has only dropped once in 16 kills. Random loot is random.

So why does the Oct 22nd date mean no burnout? I don't understand.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:55 pm

I went all of 5.2 and 5.3 without getting any gear off Nalak, even with Bonus rolls. I am known here for having terrible luck on drops, going more than 35 times in a row not getting heroic never ending winter -- Nika and I often bet who will be the last one to get a shield in their respective raid.

I know bad RNG, I dance with it often... I just won't kill myself doing content I don't want.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:04 pm

Klaudandus wrote:I went all of 5.2 and 5.3 without getting any gear off Nalak, even with Bonus rolls. I am known here for having terrible luck on drops, going more than 35 times in a row not getting heroic never ending winter -- Nika and I often bet who will be the last one to get a shield in their respective raid.

I know bad RNG, I dance with it often... I just won't kill myself doing content I don't want.

That's fine, and your raid history and performance is probably such that your raid lead isn't hounding you to run additional content to improve your performance, and you're probably comfortable with your performance so as not to feel the need to fill in gaps from lower tier content, so you're not really in the "at risk" group for burnout.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Winkle » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:01 am

Are you actually being hounded by your RL to complete LFR and Flex? I think your RL needs to access his priorities. I always imagined burnout to be a bit of a self imposed phenomenon i.e. "I should probably run LFR in case that offhand drops so i can up my dps a little more and we can beat that enrage".
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Worldie » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:39 am

There's a lot of wannabe-hardcore-RLs and guilds who, despite their skill being far below a real heroic raider, demand their raid team to put the same effort of a top end hc raider would do.

I've seen those guilds on some friends and I'm like, why is your RL stressing you so much if anyway you can't even clear normal? Having 1 more ilvl wont really make your guildies stand out of fire.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:32 pm

I've seen those guilds on some friends and I'm like, why is your RL stressing you so much if anyway you can't even clear normal? Having 1 more ilvl wont really make your guildies stand out of fire.


Can't fix people? Carry them with more numbers instead so that you limp across instead of wiping to 2% when you finally get to P3.

That's essentially what the entire point of item upgrades, raid nerfs, etc. is and the atmosphere that the majority of raiders experience anyway. Hell, that's the entire point of the "gear from lower difficulty modes" to begin with.

There's also a slight difference between "1 more ilvl" and "the gear once can get out of repeatedly farming LFR when unable to full clear Normal".
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:24 am

Darielle wrote:
I've seen those guilds on some friends and I'm like, why is your RL stressing you so much if anyway you can't even clear normal? Having 1 more ilvl wont really make your guildies stand out of fire.


Can't fix people? Carry them with more numbers instead so that you limp across instead of wiping to 2% when you finally get to P3.

That's essentially what the entire point of item upgrades, raid nerfs, etc. is and the atmosphere that the majority of raiders experience anyway. Hell, that's the entire point of the "gear from lower difficulty modes" to begin with.

There's also a slight difference between "1 more ilvl" and "the gear once can get out of repeatedly farming LFR when unable to full clear Normal".


I think it will be funny when Flex raid leaders look at damage dealt vs healing taken numbers for baddies, run a simple utility calculation on the boss scaling effect, and then say "You are actively making this fight harder for us, we'd be better off with less people than with you here"
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:49 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Darielle wrote:
I've seen those guilds on some friends and I'm like, why is your RL stressing you so much if anyway you can't even clear normal? Having 1 more ilvl wont really make your guildies stand out of fire.


Can't fix people? Carry them with more numbers instead so that you limp across instead of wiping to 2% when you finally get to P3.

That's essentially what the entire point of item upgrades, raid nerfs, etc. is and the atmosphere that the majority of raiders experience anyway. Hell, that's the entire point of the "gear from lower difficulty modes" to begin with.

There's also a slight difference between "1 more ilvl" and "the gear once can get out of repeatedly farming LFR when unable to full clear Normal".


I think it will be funny when Flex raid leaders look at damage dealt vs healing taken numbers for baddies, run a simple utility calculation on the boss scaling effect, and then say "You are actively making this fight harder for us, we'd be better off with less people than with you here"


It will be interesting to see the tradeoff between the lower difficulty level vs the deadweight that increases boss health and damage..

Someone needs to write an addon for that.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Amirya » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:58 am

Thank you for volunteering!

:P
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:46 pm

my god that's genius

if I still raided I'd write it.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:11 pm

So, the addon would compare damage taken vs damage dealt, plus factor in the increase in boss health and damage done.

If I knew how to write it... (should also be written to judge healers as well).
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:48 pm

Sabindeus wrote:I think it will be funny when Flex raid leaders look at damage dealt vs healing taken numbers for baddies, run a simple utility calculation on the boss scaling effect, and then say "You are actively making this fight harder for us, we'd be better off with less people than with you here"

The same sociopolitical issues that prevent removal of under-performing people from friends-and-family raids still apply, whether norm, flex, or heroic. The people who gear and groom their toons will always make up for those who don't.

Take the 26 best players in the world, and you will have 1 guy who is the worst. Excluding him instead of one of the other 25 makes the raid slightly easier for everyone.

The tipping point is where you have so many people who are undergeared, underknowledged, or underskilled that the group is unable complete the encounter. As long as you can complete the encounter, does it really matter if you carry someone who's just learning the fight?

Flex should be balanced anticipating some better people will be there to help carry some worse people. Inventing an add-on to identify the worse will surely make the encounter easier for all concerned, but it will make it exponentially tougher to break into Flex PUGs for people who are learning the fight, or an undergeared alt, etc. who may be a future asset, but for now are a bit below average.

And of course such an add-on would have to quantify performance, which as we all know is equal for all classes on all fights... Oh wait. Well, if you're not an optimal class for the first boss, I am sure a PuG would be patient and let you continue to the next. Oh wait. And then I am sure a Flex PuG would respect the design goal of Flex to have a variety of people and would take people who are 90%-capable for the fight... Um, no. The people running it would be the "Link FlexScore in excess of 110% capable or no inv" type, whose personal FlexScore would be in the 80s. Don't you people remember the GearScore days?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:50 pm

Of course I remember the GearScore days, but in those days I was in a guild and didn't have to PUG things...

SO basically what you're saying is I should unleash this add-on on an unsuspecting world and watch it crumble? >:D
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:00 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Of course I remember the GearScore days, but in those days I was in a guild and didn't have to PUG things...

SO basically what you're saying is I should unleash this add-on on an unsuspecting world and watch it crumble? >:D

Well, the other side of the argument is that any Flex group with more than 10 people will be kicking the lowest DPS if they wipe, so you might as well quantify it so they have a consistent measuring stick to beat each other with.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:01 pm

halabar wrote:So, the addon would compare damage taken vs damage dealt, plus factor in the increase in boss health and damage done.

If I knew how to write it... (should also be written to judge healers as well).


I don't even think damage taken is necessary. Just (damage dealt) - (increase in boss health), normalized somehow. Probably

(damage dealt)/(encounter time)*(expected encounter length) - (increase in boss health).

Expected encounter length determined by a simple TTD measure (Boss Health / Raid DPS). Negative score means you're a liability.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:10 pm

Sounds a lot like Wins Above Replacement. Wonder if there could be an addon that could calculate it.

I mean, I know there's already a TDD addon, I love using it.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:17 am

But all the people that are that anal about the people they're raiding with, and put so much effort into checking stuff shouldn't be running Flex, they should be running normal at least.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Sagara » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:22 am

Well, it's not like being so focused on other's performance naturally implies you're good enough for Normals.
Granted, that specific demographic would be more at home ELSEWHERE, but hey!
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:23 am

But the addon in question would only really be useful for people who were borderline on defeating Flex bosses, which would mean they'd likely not be able to kill Normal.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Worldie » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:23 am

That's what you think Kysen. Remember Gear Score. People abuse such kind of scores, and will start demanding you a certain FlexScore before even inviting you.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Sagara » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:30 am

Or, to go back to some root theories:

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Give people an half-assed, or even a full-assed system, and they'll form the asshole - like a black hole, they'll drag all the light to them and devour it, leaving only darkness and despair.
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