LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:52 am

No, I don't think that's an implicit assumption in my statement at all. You could analyze it on a wing-by-wing basis, especially since the wings are gated ("Hey Bob, LFR wing 1 just came out, want to run it with us?" ; "Sorry, can't, I might be doing Flex wing 1 with my raid group on Friday").


The moment you don't have that assumption, the entire scenario of 'get in the way of having fun' breaks down though, hence everything else following that quote.

Not unless putting together a Flex pug is faster than queuing for LFR. If a handful of friends want to queue up for LFR and invite you along, they're probably not interested in organizing a PuG just because you don't want to lose your loot lockout.


Flex IS meant to be easy/quick to find. That's a compound of server merges (Virtual Realms) as well as the promotion of the community aspect of the game through Flex, as well as whatever they're discussing with making cross-realm groups easier to find and put together.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:18 am

Darielle wrote:Flex IS meant to be easy/quick to find.


No, it's not.

The entire idea of the lockouts not being a problem seems to hang on that "You can just as easily jump into Flex, rather than LFR." If that were true, there would be no point in having Flex, as it would more or less be an LFR2.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Teranoid » Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:26 am

I still don't understand how you think a raid that falls between LFR and Normal is going to have any semblance of actual difficulty but hey that's also probably why this thread is reaching 40 pages.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Worldie » Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:54 am

That's cause you are overestimating the average skill of WoW players Tera.

Something that for you is a joke, like LFR durumu, or LFR lei shen, or similar encounters in the past, for the average wow player is "too hard and should be nerfed", and they usually complained so much that they did get nerfed to a retard-proof version.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:24 am

Teranoid wrote:I still don't understand how you think a raid that falls between LFR and Normal is going to have any semblance of actual difficulty but hey that's also probably why this thread is reaching 40 pages.


The thing is, if it doesn't have any semblance of actual difficulty, wouldn't it just be a 2nd LFR? They could chance LFR to scale with players, so that if you queue for LFR with 10+ players, you get your own LFR, rather than it getting filled up to 25 players.

Instead, they're putting it up as a second difficulty, and since LFR is already the "retard proof zero challenge" version, Flex needs some challenge.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Nooska » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:33 am

If you run an Ironman challenge every week (after doing a warmup marathon the first week of the season), of course you can't see that there is room for a difficulty between the 10km weekly running route and a halfmarathon - both are equally easy to you (you did a full marathon just to warm up). However if you can' manage to run that full marathon each week (you know, your warmup), then there is definately room for a half marathon, despite there also being a 10 km run.

Also, that half marathon can be quite challenging to someone who only does the 10km run previously, especially if you have to participate in or actually go look for a route for the halfmarathon, instead of just jumping in on the established route for the 10k (you just have to wait for a run to get started).


(10k = LFR, ½marathon = flex, marathon = normal and ironman = heroic - just in case anyone didn't follow the analgy - yes I now dissected it, it's dead)
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby stevos » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:11 am

I can't help thinking the ilvls are all wrong. For people with heroic content on farm for a while wont care much about it.

It's the guilds that were only partially cleared on heroic or the new members of established teams that I feel sorry for, they will get forced to run all.

When we trial people we expect them to show motivation to the teams progression and that includes gearing up outside raids. If they don't run all content, it will be hard not to question motivation. Which would be unfair on them but hard not too feel that, if they are holding you back by poor output from gear.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Nooska » Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:19 am

I have to shine the light inward sthere stevos. If that is what you are expecting, you should take a look at what your expectations do (and whether they are beneficial in the first place) to applicatns, but also the raid team.

I get the "this trinket/weapon/X is so OP that even a lower ilvl version is better than your current higher ilvl X" running. But expecting people to gear up outside raids (what is that btw? LFR is a raid too, and the only one you can reasonably expect people to have acces to while not in a raidgroup) isn't necessarily a sign of commitment (besides the point of it tiring out people).
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Winkle » Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:57 am

I must say my guild views people in the same light, if you're applying you'll have need to have made all the effort you can. The fact that scenario's/rep/crafting provide better gear than lfr atm anyway usually means that lfr level gear wouldn't be considered appropriate.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:20 pm

Nooska wrote:I get the "this trinket/weapon/X is so OP that even a lower ilvl version is better than your current higher ilvl X" running. But expecting people to gear up outside raids (what is that btw? LFR is a raid too, and the only one you can reasonably expect people to have acces to while not in a raidgroup) isn't necessarily a sign of commitment (besides the point of it tiring out people).

Gearing up outside of raids means gearing up outside of the guild-run raids. That's valor capping, running LFR or any other level of raiding that the guild isn't running, getting crafted gear, getting rep gear - basically using your free time to gear your toon as well as you possibly can in order to maximize your potential.

Reputations and LFR clears are commonly looked at for applicants to progression raiding guilds in addition to gear, because they are indicators of work done outside of raids. If you are in such a guild, you are expected to do what you can to maximize your performance. You should have capped professions, maxed reputations, multiple LFR clears, etc. that show you don't just log in to raid then play alts the rest of the week.

When Flex comes in, if the progression guild is only running a norm/heroic raid, then you are expected to run the LFR and Felx version in order to get the gear to maximize your performance in the guild raid.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Nooska » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:02 am

See thats the disconnect.
How can you expect people to run organized raids outside the organized raids?
Flex is not something you simply jump in to.
It may be that flex PUGs become normal, but expecting everyone to have access to a flex PUG is back into teh unreasonable territory.

Also, I get the "show commitment" thing, but realistically, running LFR or not won't make any measurable impact on the performance of an applicant, since the chance of useful gear is rather low anyway.

I do get the drive to do so, and I do get the psychological fallacies that make "us" expect other people to do so, but I maintain that the issue t here is inwards, not outwards.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:43 am

Nooska wrote:See thats the disconnect.
How can you expect people to run organized raids outside the organized raids?
Flex is not something you simply jump in to.
It may be that flex PUGs become normal, but expecting everyone to have access to a flex PUG is back into teh unreasonable territory.

Also, I get the "show commitment" thing, but realistically, running LFR or not won't make any measurable impact on the performance of an applicant, since the chance of useful gear is rather low anyway.

I do get the drive to do so, and I do get the psychological fallacies that make "us" expect other people to do so, but I maintain that the issue t here is inwards, not outwards.

Well, this is where we fundamentally disagree. I think there will be tons of opportunities to run Flex based on guilds propping up numbers, merged realms, PuGs, and the like, whereas you see it as something that must be scheduled and organised.

People PuG norm modes now, so the idea that Flex would be too hard to PuG is just silly.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:34 am

If you could PuG normal on your main next to the guild run, would you expect people to pug normal in addition to the guild run for the extra gear?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Winkle » Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:16 am

Thels wrote:If you could PuG normal on your main next to the guild run, would you expect people to pug normal in addition to the guild run for the extra gear?


I think different guilds have different expectations, we're running flex guild runs initially. Effectively adding another raiding day.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:34 am

Thels wrote:If you could PuG normal on your main next to the guild run, would you expect people to pug normal in addition to the guild run for the extra gear?


No, because I don't hate my raiders.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:10 pm

So.. now we have hardcore guilds that will require raiders to run Flex if they need gear, at the same time they bitch about it existing and how they shouldn't *have* to do it. :lol:

Side note.. Commitment is not the same as having the time available to do all that.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Amirya » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:24 pm

Thels wrote:If you could PuG normal on your main next to the guild run, would you expect people to pug normal in addition to the guild run for the extra gear?

No, because Real Life > WoW Raids
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:40 pm

Thels wrote:If you could PuG normal on your main next to the guild run, would you expect people to pug normal in addition to the guild run for the extra gear?

I wouldn't expect it because I lead a norm-mode raid for a largely social guild.

If I was a leading a progression raid, I wouldn't expect it of people per se, but the people who did would stand out by having superior gear, better understanding of the mechanics, and therefore probably superior performance, so I would be selecting them over the people who wouldn't run it.

We can all be as nice as we want, but the reality of progression raiding is that performance kills bosses.

In the next patch, people who run LFR and Flex in addition to the guild raid will be sat less than people who don't, because the people who run the additional content will be better prepared for the guild's main content. They will have better gear, and know the mechanics better.

We'll be running Flex primarily as a guild, but will also be running a norm-mode raid. The people I select for the norm-mode raid will be the best performers from the Flex raid who can make the time slot. Flex will be for the people who want to show up on raid night missing enchants, who don't use potions, have sub-optimal spec and rotation, etc. while the norm mode will be for the people who take their preparation a bit more seriously.

Any of you who lead raids, be honest - you'd do the same. It sucks to spend weeks wiping on a boss because you have people who perform poorly or simply can't execute a strategy. If you can give them a chance to raid AND remove them as obstacles from the norm raid, wouldn't you jump at the chance?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Amirya » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:54 pm

I don't lead raids anymore (I flat out refuse), but I wouldn't simply sit someone who was a poor performer and/or couldn't execute a strategy until I knew why. I always tried to do it on a case by case basis (and in some cases, I even tried to sit myself because I knew I had problems). Some of the worst performers became the best simply by figuring out why they were performing poorly. Some of the best executers - in theory - were subpar because their machines couldn't handle the clusterfuck that is ground effects regardless of level.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:21 pm

Amirya wrote:I don't lead raids anymore (I flat out refuse), but I wouldn't simply sit someone who was a poor performer and/or couldn't execute a strategy until I knew why. I always tried to do it on a case by case basis (and in some cases, I even tried to sit myself because I knew I had problems). Some of the worst performers became the best simply by figuring out why they were performing poorly. Some of the best executers - in theory - were subpar because their machines couldn't handle the clusterfuck that is ground effects regardless of level.

I've been raiding with most of these people since Lich King. I have a pretty good handle on who has what issue, who is going to turn into a spirit healer in about 25 seconds, who is going to show up without enchants, who doesn't ever use potions, who doesn't buy valor gear, etc. I've been down the path of "hey, our other person of your class and spec (who doubles your output) uses this spell but you don't - have you considered trying it?".

But having led raids on various levels since BC, I've come to the conclusion that it's not my problem. They need to get their own act together.

With Flex, I can give everyone raid time, then cherry-pick my 10N group from the people who perform the best. Really looking forward to that.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Amirya » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:57 pm

This is true, and also reflects a difference in raid style. Once Cataclysm hit, it didn't just affect Azeroth, it also hit the guild pretty hard. People decided to go to school, have kids, quit jobs and disappear into the ether, faction change, server ninja, and whatever else. Our current guildmaster has seriously been considering moving the guild to a different server, even if he has to pay for the character transfers for some of the steadiest players.

In theory, though, if my group were as steadfast as you, I am with you all the way.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:25 am

Well, despite all the consternation here.. the new raid schedule is up.

After the second week, it's basically alternating between Flex and LFR unlocks, with everything open before the end of Oct.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Teranoid » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:43 am

And the crying of "why can't I kill Garrosh day one" has already begun.

I'm really starting to despise the people that play this game.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Winkle » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:47 am

He'll be dead in week one on normal, i can't remember the reason they gave before for the slow release schedule. If people were considering re-subbing due to the introduction of flex this may slow their return somewhat. Obviously in the long term the impact is probably negligible.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby oldboyz » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:02 am

totally agree with all Koatanga's comment
(i lead since Vanilla)

i used to have first nights dedicated to roster rotation, and the last nights for "best" player

i'm gonna apply same philosophie with flex/nm*

someone who doesn't have time to improve his characters should be happy to have a guarantee slot in Flex raid. Up to him to demonstrate he can contribute enough to be then also considered for the Normal raid :wink: he has no pression to do it if the flex progression is fine for him
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