LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:37 am

Koatanga wrote:
Thels wrote:Are you trying to discuss things, or trying to make fun of me?

I am pointing out that once we establish it's fine for one group, you say it's difficult for another group because of the reasons that made it fine for the first. And when I point out it's also fine for the second group, you say it's difficult for the first group because of the reasons it's fine for the second group. But it was already fine for the first group because those reasons don't apply to them, so I get a bit confused as to which target I'm supposed to hit. You're not exactly playing fair.


You have in no way established that it's fine. If someone has a group of friends he'll play with on monday, your advise was to play on wednesday instead. Every single solution you gave to each individual scenario that didn't work out was either "Run things at different times" or "Suck it up and get no loot this week".

I wrote a big reply, but then deleted it again, as it's getting pointless. I really should stop looking at this thread completely.

Without a loot lockout, you can enjoy the game free and unburdened as opportunities come to you without having to worry what effects they'll have on the rest of the week. With a loot lockout, you have to plan ahead.

If you are seriously stating that combining LFR and Flex into a single lockout has no downside whatsoever, you are plainly wrong.

If you are stating that the downsides of combining LFR and Flex are smaller than the upsides, then I can understand that. I still don't agree, but since we seem to have completely different ideas about the actual audience of Flex raiding, that's not going to get to an agreement anywhere down the line.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Nooska » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:18 am

Would the feeling of needing to run LFR/Flex still be present if you got the free lootroll that the "the*s" are proposing as the best solution?

I agree iwth theck that "earning" loot is an arbitrary measure - but also that there would be backlash against it, though it would be a better solution for the lower tier than the ihgher tier (especially because the main (valid) argument for great ilvl distinction would disappear - "feeling more powerful" is not really a valid argument, as that is also arbitrary, as well as highly subjective (how much more do you need to be able to do to satisfy feling more powerful?).

The end solution highligted in Thecks post, as proposed by Thels (and probably others that are namless to us) is actually a win/win - if you do normal(or higher) difficulty, you get an automati LFR roll.
Flex would be substitued for LFR for organized raiders (makin its almost status quo compared to today, a better/worse situation - better for some a sthey don't need to drag LFR AND get higher ilvl from it - worse for some, because they can't just do it when they have time)

Alternatly the more provoking; you run normal, you lose the lfr loot roll (shared lockout, downwards at least), run heroic, you lose LFR AND Flex (downward, possibly upward as well, as Flex is not intended for heroic raiders). That woul remove any system bias for heroic raiders to do either, and for normal raiders to do LFR, and still let lfr/flex level raiders do both.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:22 am

Nooska wrote:Alternatly the more provoking; you run normal, you lose the lfr loot roll (shared lockout, downwards at least), run heroic, you lose LFR AND Flex (downward, possibly upward as well, as Flex is not intended for heroic raiders). That woul remove any system bias for heroic raiders to do either, and for normal raiders to do LFR, and still let lfr/flex level raiders do both.


I am ok with that system too. But kinda needs for you to do Heroic before LFR/Flex

Also, what gets me is that someone people are assuming that LFR is going to be available completely right off the bat! If I recall correctly, heroic lei-shen was down way before LFR Lei-shen opened.

Kinda hard to get burned out on content you won't have access too for several weeks.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:27 am

Nooska wrote:Alternatly the more provoking; you run normal, you lose the lfr loot roll (shared lockout, downwards at least),


Only downwards wouldn't help at all. It would simply force players to run LFR before Normal.

Now if they could make it so that running certain content would lock you out of loot of all lower level content for the NEXT week, rather than the current week, that would work quite well.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:22 am

Ah, I didn't read the previous 907937423047023 pages closely enough to pick out the single lockout applied to LFR/Flex only. It's marginally better, but still a horrible imposition on people who are going to run *just* LFR/Flex. Flex is targeted at F&F guilds -- people for whom, as it's been mentioned upthread -- LFR is easy, but normal is too hard. What's the point of the combined lockout? to prevent burnout on heroic raiders who don't want to crawl through soul-crushingly horrible LFR in pursuit of a trinket?

F&F raiders will be running LFR/Flex forever because that's all they have. Heroic raiders can stop once the item they absolutely can't live without drops anywhere. The lower difficulty raids

Koatanga wrote:If I was in your guild, I would try gear myself well enough to be a desirable and therefore regular member of the 10-man team, so with multiple lockouts, I would feel the need to run LFR, Flex, and Norm every week, which can lead to "I am so damn tired of killing this stupid boss" syndrome. Imposing a single lock between LFR and Flex has your people just running your Flex and Norm runs.


If you're a part of the progression team you'd already just be running Flex and Norm/Heroic. If you're geared for raiding odds are you don't need any LFR gear. If you're in my guild and we want you raiding we're going to carry you through farm content even if you're in greens. There's no need to do LFR at all. Time is going to introduce enough of "oh joy time to kill X for the 56th time."

Koatanga wrote:Bliz has not made move to do anything about the burnout factor, but they did historically such as the lockout change between ToC and ICC, so it is reasonable to think they may do in the future. If not this patch, then a future one.


You could make an argument that shared LFR/Flex lockouts are not so very dissimilar to Normal/Heroic lockouts, so of course it makes logical sense and seems utterly reasonable, yes? The problem is the targeted demographic and the people served by LFR and Flex are completely different, and combining the two is nonsensical for a huge portion of the population.

The more I think about it the more I want to start agitating for decoupling normal/heroic lockouts!
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:14 am

Thels wrote:
Koatanga wrote:
Thels wrote:Are you trying to discuss things, or trying to make fun of me?

I am pointing out that once we establish it's fine for one group, you say it's difficult for another group because of the reasons that made it fine for the first. And when I point out it's also fine for the second group, you say it's difficult for the first group because of the reasons it's fine for the second group. But it was already fine for the first group because those reasons don't apply to them, so I get a bit confused as to which target I'm supposed to hit. You're not exactly playing fair.


You have in no way established that it's fine. If someone has a group of friends he'll play with on monday, your advise was to play on wednesday instead. Every single solution you gave to each individual scenario that didn't work out was either "Run things at different times" or "Suck it up and get no loot this week".

I wrote a big reply, but then deleted it again, as it's getting pointless. I really should stop looking at this thread completely.

Without a loot lockout, you can enjoy the game free and unburdened as opportunities come to you without having to worry what effects they'll have on the rest of the week. With a loot lockout, you have to plan ahead.

If you are seriously stating that combining LFR and Flex into a single lockout has no downside whatsoever, you are plainly wrong.

If you are stating that the downsides of combining LFR and Flex are smaller than the upsides, then I can understand that. I still don't agree, but since we seem to have completely different ideas about the actual audience of Flex raiding, that's not going to get to an agreement anywhere down the line.


The lockouts are being combined the wrong way... it should be:

LFR+Flex+N or Flex+N+H

H raider could still help a bud in LFR, but get no loot. H raiders aren't compelled to run LFR.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby daishan » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:51 am

fuzzygeek wrote:The more I think about it the more I want to start agitating for decoupling normal/heroic lockouts!

*Shudder*

Losing that first week of normal modes that helps blizz catch bugs they missed on the ptr would be bad enough, the extra time sink and risk of burning out raiders would be worse.

Though for me by far the biggest annoyance would be how boring some of the encounters would become, Iron Qon was fairly easy for my guild when we killed it 4th week (I think) of ToT but it was challenging enough to be fun, we needed to blow hero on the 2nd dog and our healers couldn't keep everyone alive in the last phase so the enrage timer was in sight if not a real problem.
Now if we'd not been able to pull Iron Qon hm until after we killed DA hm, Qon would've been a massive let down nothing more than glorified trash, same thing with Ji Kun after killing Meg.

Not sure how serious you were been about wanting to split the lockouts :p
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:01 am

halabar wrote:The lockouts are being combined the wrong way... it should be:

LFR+Flex+N or Flex+N+H


I'm clueless why you choose to separate Normal and Heroic. The problem exists as much if not more for Normal Mode Raiders than it does for Heroic Mode Raiders. Why should Heroic Raiders be prevented from running 3 different contents, while Normal Raiders are still permitted to burn themselves out on the triple content?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:07 pm

Thels wrote:
halabar wrote:The lockouts are being combined the wrong way... it should be:

LFR+Flex+N or Flex+N+H


I'm clueless why you choose to separate Normal and Heroic. The problem exists as much if not more for Normal Mode Raiders than it does for Heroic Mode Raiders. Why should Heroic Raiders be prevented from running 3 different contents, while Normal Raiders are still permitted to burn themselves out on the triple content?


Because, from my perspective, the true normal mode raiders (my guild currently is at N Q 25), I don't see it as a problem. If anything, most of the people in that level need all the gearing options they can get. And I don't see them complaining. They aren't burning themselves out, I think this is a straw-man setup by the HC crowd. I'm in a massive guild, and I don't see these complaints.

If anything was burning out the N raiders, it was running LFR to get the damn legendary stuff, when otherwise they don't need anything from there.

HC raiders, on the other hand, are the ones who are complaining about needing to run LFR. So, lock them out of it. Problem solved.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:56 pm

halabar wrote:If anything, most of the people in that level need all the gearing options they can get.


This actually is exactly the problem. LFR gear will help on normal/heroic progression. A lot of people will go get their LFR gear, because they can.

I don't know what your raiding schedule is, but from personal experience, I've seen plenty of non-heroic raiders burn themselves out on content. A lot of people that are advocating against LFR gear actually aren't Heroic raiders, but Normal raiders, or only dabble into Heroics.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:54 pm

Encouraging =/= Forcing.


Well, thank you for replying to a nonexistent discussion.

You're the only one that makes the claim that the system, by its very nature, encourages you to do it. It is a player problem because the player is the one that consciously makes the decision to do everything and apparently wont stop unless the system limits him somehow.


You know, you claimed to read back to page 1.
This seems to completely contradict that.

Sure, the game might benefit if Blizz changes things for Flex/LFR, in my case, I believe the best solutions are either the lockout or the thecks/thels solution -- but given that we're going into 5.4 without either of the two, the best solution available is to simply realize its an option and you have to consciously make the choice to do content you don't want to.


What's happening in 5.4 is pretty much irrelevant to anything that could ever go into this thread, so I'm seriously not sure why you think that paragraph and the following one have any meaning. Yes, people will do what is there to do in 5.4. The sun also sets in the West.

Also, what gets me is that someone people are assuming that LFR is going to be available completely right off the bat! If I recall correctly, heroic lei-shen was down way before LFR Lei-shen opened.

Kinda hard to get burned out on content you won't have access too for several weeks.


Aside from maybe Trekkie here, I doubt anyone even saw Lei Shen on Heroic before LFR Lei-Shen opened.

And it doesn't actually follow that LFR Lei Shen would be less boring just because you've done several weeks of Normal Lei Shen first. If anything, that makes it even more boring when you've spent weeks dodging stuff or paying attention to mechanics and then going "LOL THUNDERSTRUCK".

I don't know what your raiding schedule is, but from personal experience, I've seen plenty of non-heroic raiders burn themselves out on content. A lot of people that are advocating against LFR gear actually aren't Heroic raiders, but Normal raiders, or only dabble into Heroics.


The other thing to point out too is that a player that by default has no interest in multiple modes is going to feel multiple modes more boring. Given that there are a substantial chunk of people who refuse to do Heroic raiding specifically because it's "another mode with more numbers", those same people are more likely to find LFR a drag.

Without a loot lockout, you can enjoy the game free and unburdened as opportunities come to you without having to worry what effects they'll have on the rest of the week. With a loot lockout, you have to plan ahead.

If you are seriously stating that combining LFR and Flex into a single lockout has no downside whatsoever, you are plainly wrong.

If you are stating that the downsides of combining LFR and Flex are smaller than the upsides, then I can understand that. I still don't agree, but since we seem to have completely different ideas about the actual audience of Flex raiding, that's not going to get to an agreement anywhere down the line.


I think what he's saying is that the proposal of a player specifically at that level, who can only play on Monday/Sunday, who can still play on an earlier day, AND who won't do anything else (especially if said player in said guild Flex isn't going to be clearing all of Flex in that one night) is getting to a narrow amount of people "affected", and that when he points to those conditions, he feels like you're changing the goalposts to talk about a different example of player.

That's just me interpreting what he's saying, not me agreeing with him.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:10 pm

Well, you're the one that keeps insisting its blizzard's fault people have no willpower. Blizzard is not even encouraging, blizzard is merely leaving an option open. Again, the player is the one that has to consciously make the choice to say "I will do this that is completely boring and mind numbing".

But just for the sake of it, I've been agreeing that such thing CAN be a problem, because I'd rather not lose any more guildies simply cuz they don't know how to stop hitting their skinner box.

As mentioned, we just happen to disagree on the solutions and on whose fault is it in the first place.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:20 pm

Well, you're the one that keeps insisting its blizzard's fault people have no willpower.


People have willpower. Doing LFR isn't a sign of zero willpower.
What I said Blizzard can't do is fault their own players for going along with the system - a system which was created for a reason and for a purpose (that it isn't particularly effective at fulfilling)

Blizzard is not even encouraging, blizzard is merely leaving an option open.


The entire basis for tying in additional activities to raiding was to specifically encourage raiders to want to do things outside of their standard guild raid.
More to the point, we originally started this discussion because the actual effect of suggested changes (whether it be loot, lockout or modification of special items) IS to make things an actual option left open.

As mentioned, we just happen to disagree on the solutions and on whose fault is it in the first place.


There is no "fault" in any of this. Your fixation with trying to blame people is your downfall here.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:32 pm

Darielle wrote:
Without a loot lockout, you can enjoy the game free and unburdened as opportunities come to you without having to worry what effects they'll have on the rest of the week. With a loot lockout, you have to plan ahead.

If you are seriously stating that combining LFR and Flex into a single lockout has no downside whatsoever, you are plainly wrong.

If you are stating that the downsides of combining LFR and Flex are smaller than the upsides, then I can understand that. I still don't agree, but since we seem to have completely different ideas about the actual audience of Flex raiding, that's not going to get to an agreement anywhere down the line.


I think what he's saying is that the proposal of a player specifically at that level, who can only play on Monday/Sunday, who can still play on an earlier day, AND who won't do anything else (especially if said player in said guild Flex isn't going to be clearing all of Flex in that one night) is getting to a narrow amount of people "affected", and that when he points to those conditions, he feels like you're changing the goalposts to talk about a different example of player.

That's just me interpreting what he's saying, not me agreeing with him.

Your interpretation is exactly correct.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby theckhd » Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:49 am

Thels wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:then Theck's solution


It wasn't Theck's solution. :P


As soon as I throw my weight behind an idea, it becomes mine. It's in the disclaimer you automatically agree to when posting on my blog. :lol:

Koatanga wrote:Your interpretation is exactly correct.

I think you're pigeonholing those players too much though. There absolutely is a large segment of the population that runs LFR every week, often with a couple of friends from their guild, but can't field a full team that can handle normals. If you read / listen to any of the interviews performed with Watcher (like the recent CTR interview) or the other devs, you'll find them explicitly saying that Flex was designed to help these guilds, both by giving them content appropriate to their skill level and by revitalizing the pugging scene.

The scenario I put forth earlier in the thread isn't going to be uncommon at all. Player logs on on Tues/Wed, has an opportunity to run LFR with a friend or two. They may have a scheduled Flex raid later in the week, or may have plans to try and find a PuG on the weekend. If Flex and LFR share a lockout, they have a decision to make, because they can't get loot from both. Either they say no to their friends in order to be eligible for loot in the guild raid, or they have a complicated risk assessment problem to solve regarding their likelihood to find a pug later in the week.

The point here is that this reduces the flexibility and accessibility of both formats. This is a big deal, and basically a dealbreaker for the lockout idea. Insisting that most guilds can handle the scheduling part is missing the point, and doesn't address the pugging issue at all. The Flex and LFR formats are designed to be accessible, period. That's Blizzard's #1 concern with these formats, and in fact the reason they exist at all.

You're also ignoring the upgrade path - part of the reason that LFR/Flex don't share lockouts with each other or normal/heroic is to provide a fallback on the gear path. If a guild is struggling at Normal, they can go back to LFR/Flex to pick up some upgrades to get them over the hump. Similar argument applies to going back to LFR if you're struggling with Flex. It's also related to the reason that there's no Valor gear in 5.4 (again, see Watcher's CTR interview).

So it's a patently false statement that it's a good solution, let alone better than the alternative (which is doing nothing). It is demonstrably bad for the intended audiences of Flex and LFR. These formats are built around accessibility. Flex isn't intended just for guilds that can manage to keep a regular schedule - it has to accommodate guilds that don't always raid regularly, guilds that don't run organized raids at all (i.e. maybe 3 or 4 players join pugs together), players that aren't even in guilds, and even normal/heroic players who are trying to quickly gear up a new main.

Flex has to remain accessible to all of those players, and anything that significantly impacts a large part of the population is off the table, period. That's why you will almost certainly never see any sort of shared raid lockout between LFR, Flex, and Normal/Heroic. Their stance on that is pretty firm, and it's based in sound game design principles.
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