LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Nooska » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:13 am

Koatanga wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Personally? I'd prefer a lockout system, but that also affects a lot of people more than it benefits.

That depends entirely on one's viewpoint. I have already discussed that in a lockout situation everyone gets the same number of loot chances they get now, so it doesn't negatively affect anyone while benefiting many norm and heroic raiders for reasons also already discussed.

So your ideal solution is to not implement flex at all (since that would also be everyone have the same amount of loot chances as they ahve today)?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:29 am

Just to try to frame it
Approx 385855 have killed Jinrok on normal vs 153130 in heroic. I'd assume the number quickly goes up for LFR but Guildox does not keep track of the number of kills in LFR.

Also, do you mind posting a complete rebuttal to Theck's post here? I'd like to read it.

That said, if there's a solution for all of this, I still believe the best solution is his. That solution is something I support since it doesnt seem to affect anyone negatively.

Also, I find it funny that you label me as being subjective whenever I say "affects people negatively" when your problem of having too many options (if boring ones) is also highly subjective.

If you're calling me subjective and biased, at least admit you are also being subjective and biased.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:51 pm

Nooska wrote:So your ideal solution is to not implement flex at all (since that would also be everyone have the same amount of loot chances as they ahve today)?

Quite the contrary. I welcome Flex as an alternative to dealing with the mouth-breathers and trolls in LFR. I can't wait to never set foot in an LFR raid ever again. I'll cap my valor and get my welfare epics without some know-it-all DPS (who happens to be dead from standing in fire) telling me where to tank the boss. Freaking nirvana as far as I am concerned.

If anything, I would take out LFR so people can't hide behind anonymity to be assholes to other people. Re-introduce the concepts of personal responsibility and reputation. It used to be if you were an asshole to everyone, you didn't get picked up for any groups (or you were the guild leader of the big raiding guild). Nobody cares how they behave anymore because there are no consequences to it. LFR and LFG are *terrible* for the social aspect of the game.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:13 pm

Klaudandus wrote:But the problem lies in the nature of LFR in the first place. People will try to run all LFRs on the day of the reset. If you later on have a chance to do Flex, now you're stuck without gear. If you schedule to do Flex first, now you have the problem on running LFR towards the end of the reset, which is when the worst LFR groups happen. Heavens forbid you try to run LFR the night prior to the reset.


We've been through this already, but here it is in a nutshell (yes, it's a large nut):

People will want to run *something* on the first day of reset, and if Flex pays better, they'll run Flex first, not LFR. I don't buy the assumption that people will continue to run LFR on that day like automatons when better quality of gear and a better raiding environment exists in Flex.

If you schedule Flex first, did you run it by yourself? Because if not then there will be other people running LFR later in the week, so the talent pool won't be quite so shallow as it is now. You'll probably find lots of people making up Flex and LFR on weekends. Most raiders going for progression will have a norm/HC raid scheduled on the first night after reset, so they won't be doing Flex or LFR then anyway.

Virtually merged servers will be introduced "shortly after launch", increasing the opportunity for Flex raiding.

Guilds will pick up raiders for Flex raiding. Some guilds will use Flex as an audition/recruiting tool, so they will invite public in beyond the minimum required to run.

If you do run LFR early and get locked out of those bosses before you run Flex, then you're not stuck without gear. You rolled for gear when you killed those bosses in LFR, and presumably got loot from them. That was your one shot in that week, just like you have one shot now.

And lastly, the alternative to the burnout issue is to nerf the LFR gear until no HC raiders (or other people) want it, and the alternative to people gearing up too quickly is to cut the drop chance of loot by a full third, to account for them getting half their slots filled in Flex before they are done filling them with LFR gear (if they get gear from both).

Since I don't plan to darken LFR's doorway any time after 5.4 drops, I guess I am OK with nerfing LFR ilvl to the ground, but a lot of people hate that idea. However, also because I don't plan to run LFR, nerfing the drop frequency of Flex to extend the effective life of LFR would piss me off.

Therefore the solution I think is best is the single-lockout.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:21 pm

Koatanga wrote:Therefore the solution I think is best is the single-lockout.


In a sense, I agree with you. I dont know if you missed the part where I mention my upfront solution is the lockout system, if that cannot be done, then Theck's solution -- all I did was try to play devils advocate on why that might not fly.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:07 pm

Koatanga wrote:People will want to run *something* on the first day of reset, and if Flex pays better, they'll run Flex first, not LFR.


Incorrect. People for whom Flex is intended will run Flex when their friends to run Flex with happen to be online.

EDIT: Or at least a decent amount will. Sure, some guilds will plan Flex on Wed and Thu (EU) or Tue and Wed (US), other guilds will check what dates work best for their group, or run Flex whenever there are 12 or so people online at the same time. There will also be a bunch of guilds that run Flex on whichever evening it won't infringe with their regular raid schedule, and bring both their raiders and the other casuals in the guild. There are tons of reasons to come up with why people will not be running Flex on the first day after reset.

Flex means Flexibility towards the player, not as a player requirement.

Klaudandus wrote:then Theck's solution


It wasn't Theck's solution. :P
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:34 pm

My bad~!
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:52 pm

Thels wrote:
Koatanga wrote:People will want to run *something* on the first day of reset, and if Flex pays better, they'll run Flex first, not LFR.


Incorrect. People for whom Flex is intended will run Flex when their friends to run Flex with happen to be online.

EDIT: Or at least a decent amount will. Sure, some guilds will plan Flex on Wed and Thu (EU) or Tue and Wed (US), other guilds will check what dates work best for their group, or run Flex whenever there are 12 or so people online at the same time. There will also be a bunch of guilds that run Flex on whichever evening it won't infringe with their regular raid schedule, and bring both their raiders and the other casuals in the guild. There are tons of reasons to come up with why people will not be running Flex on the first day after reset.

Flex means Flexibility towards the player, not as a player requirement.

Are you taking about the people in guilds who have stable Flex runs to do with their guilds, so they know when it will be and probably how many bosses they can take down and could plan to run LFR around that? Or are you talking about the Bohemians for whom anything scheduled is a major downer and they must live life as the wind blows?

Because it seems like whatever I say, you flop to the opposite group in order to argue the point, which looks very much like the logical fallacy of definition - for any argument there is a sufficiently narrow range of definition for which it isn't true.

It seems to me that if a bunch of random people who don't have guild runs to go on want to run LFR on the same day (right after reset), they just might get together and run Flex if it's more profitable for them to do so.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:57 pm

Just to try to frame it
Approx 385855 have killed Jinrok on normal vs 153130 in heroic. I'd assume the number quickly goes up for LFR but Guildox does not keep track of the number of kills in LFR.


Not sure how you think that frames it. Without a number for kills in LFR, and whatever you can justify to remove from that based on:
- Normal mode and Heroic mode raiders also killing LFR
- Alts of said raiders doing LFR just because
etc., there isn't much to frame.

Also, I find it funny that you label me as being subjective whenever I say "affects people negatively" when your problem of having too many options (if boring ones) is also highly subjective.

If you're calling me subjective and biased, at least admit you are also being subjective and biased.


Dude, can you please at least pretend to read for once?
There's nothing subjective about you saying that it affects people negatively. At long as you can make the case that it affects at least 1 person negatively, you can make the case that affecting people negatively is true.
When you start getting into affecting more people negatively than positively, you need to make clear distinctions that this isn't just because you've decided to lump "All people who've done LFR" into one crowd and pretended that this affects all of them. Because the more we talk about this, the more niche it gets about who is actually negatively affected, especially since the entire point of ANY change is to offset that*.

By contrast, if you see me marginalising a group ("make casuals feel better"), or claiming that every Heroic raider will like totally quit if Y doesn't happen (hint: I haven't done that), then you can go ahead and call me out on doing the same thing. Feel free to.

*In other words, if you're going to enforce a lockout, it would be a great thing to add pooling up to 2 lockouts to mitigate the effects of missing out on a particular week to go alongside it. If you're going to lower ilvl of LFR loot, it should be pretty obvious that Normal, Flex and Heroic would also come down in the same fashion, AND that you would ensure that Valor loot (if it even still exists in the future) is not going to be quite so available or jump to a ridiculous ilvl. If you're going to look at baking in the rolls, it should be apparent that you're looking at a system where loot tables and drop rates are going to be adjusted in concert.

Out of curiosity, do you actually feel that the perception of "caving in to Heroic Raiders" won't also apply to "extra loot", and that people won't complain that Normal/Heroic Raiders are like totally getting more loot that they "didn't earn", or that people won't then blame their own stupidity in losing 12 people to Disintegration Beam in LFR on "WAY TO GO BLIZZ"??

Incorrect. People for whom Flex is intended will run Flex when their friends to run Flex with happen to be online.

EDIT: Or at least a decent amount will. Sure, some guilds will plan Flex on Wed and Thu (EU) or Tue and Wed (US), other guilds will check what dates work best for their group, or run Flex whenever there are 12 or so people online at the same time. There will also be a bunch of guilds that run Flex on whichever evening it won't infringe with their regular raid schedule, and bring both their raiders and the other casuals in the guild. There are tons of reasons to come up with why people will not be running Flex on the first day after reset.

Flex means Flexibility towards the player, not as a player requirement.


They seem to be talking more about the people that run LFR/Flex with strangers, on the basis that runs will be more successful earlier in the week, from what I can see. A guild run doesn't factor into that equation.

Also, do you mind posting a complete rebuttal to Theck's post here? I'd like to read it.


At some point, possibly.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:54 pm

I never said it fully frames it, but it gives a quick sample on the number of guilds that have completed heroic jinrok vs normal jinrok -- you can easily extrapolate that the easier the content, the more people that will complete it successfully.

Believe it or not, reading all the way back to the first page, I agree with you about the possibility of the current design leading to burnout.

The only difference is that you are intent on blaming the system for that possibility rather than looking in the mirror and blaming yourself instead.

The easiest solution has always been the one that you dismiss the most, the fact that the game, and anything you do in it, is a choice.

Going further down the road, I actually think the only viable solution of the ones you've mentioned (lockout, nerf to ilvl, redesign to lfr loot) is the lockout, and one I actually support, although somewhat begrudgingly.

Reason why I prefer Theck/Thels solution is because I don't care what heroic raiders do as long as it doesn't affect me negatively and seems to be a compromise between LFR raiders and heroic raiders.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:53 pm

I hate the idea of a single lockout.

I am considering recruiting to fill up to a 25M Flex Raid. I would then take 10 people for heroic 10M raiding. We'd swap people in and out (assuming they're good enough to carry their weight, which we can determine from flex performance, etc.), and we'd have a larger pool of raiders so if one person doesn't show we don't have to cancel raids.

This solves a few problems we and other guilds like mine have; putting everything on one lockout forces you to say, "Ok, we are a X-level guild, and that's all we can do. Fuck us for trying to have some flexibility."

If someone is arguing for single lockouts they should review the debate over capping dailies; I'm not sure how that debate is significantly different.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:27 pm

I never said it fully frames it, but it gives a quick sample on the number of guilds that have completed heroic jinrok vs normal jinrok -- you can easily extrapolate that the easier the content, the more people that will complete it successfully.


Well, if you propose that every single person who beat Heroic Jin'Rokh also beat Normal Jin'rokh by default and therefore should be subtracted, are you proposing that it's still extrapolatable?

Believe it or not, reading all the way back to the first page, I agree with you about the possibility of the current design leading to burnout.
The only difference is that you are intent on blaming the system for that possibility rather than looking in the mirror and blaming yourself instead.
The easiest solution has always been the one that you dismiss the most, the fact that the game, and anything you do in it, is a choice.


I'm not sure why you think blaming players for doing exactly what the system encourages is a player problem, and not a system problem.
Or that the easiest solution is to try and have people blame themselves for going along with what is encouraged when the entire point of encouraging that is to get them to go along with it.

Or to completely throw away the entire concept of game design to argue that anything is a "choice".
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:24 am

Koatanga wrote:Because it seems like whatever I say, you flop to the opposite group in order to argue the point, which looks very much like the logical fallacy of definition


Are you trying to discuss things, or trying to make fun of me?



Let's get things down to the very basics, because you seem to constantly drown in the details:

Combining LFR and Flex into a single lockout WILL add logistics to the game. It WILL require people to plan ahead if they are going to do LFR or Flex this week, and thus in which order they do stuff.

Admittedly, a good number of people will be able to plan around it quite convenietly without too much issue.

On the flip side, there is also a good number of people to whom this would cause a major inconvenience, who are not able to plan around it, due to other concerns in real life.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:11 am

Thels wrote:Are you trying to discuss things, or trying to make fun of me?

I am pointing out that once we establish it's fine for one group, you say it's difficult for another group because of the reasons that made it fine for the first. And when I point out it's also fine for the second group, you say it's difficult for the first group because of the reasons it's fine for the second group. But it was already fine for the first group because those reasons don't apply to them, so I get a bit confused as to which target I'm supposed to hit. You're not exactly playing fair.

Thels wrote:Let's get things down to the very basics, because you seem to constantly drown in the details:

Combining LFR and Flex into a single lockout WILL add logistics to the game. It WILL require people to plan ahead if they are going to do LFR or Flex this week, and thus in which order they do stuff.

No. It will ONLY add logistics if they want to run both LFR AND Flex. They can run LFR just as they do now with absolutely no added complication or logistics. If their schedule is too messed up to handle Flex, they can still do what they do now with no penalty whatsoever.

If their schedule is OK but they don't have time for both, they can run Flex for better gear than they would have without it.

If Flex doesn't clear AND they can still use LFR drops AND they have time to run LFR AND the Flex is late in the week AND they have reasons they can't run LFR on the remainder of the week, then they could have some issues, but 1: That's a lot of "and", and 2: It goes away after a few weeks when they no longer want LFR gear and the Flex is clearing.

Thels wrote:Admittedly, a good number of people will be able to plan around it quite convenietly without too much issue.

Yes. It's not rocket surgery. Life falls into ruts and schedules. You get into a regular Flex, you have a decent idea what you're going to clear, so you run LFR at your convenience before or after your Flex to knock off the other bosses.

Thels wrote:On the flip side, there is also a good number of people to whom this would cause a major inconvenience, who are not able to plan around it, due to other concerns in real life.

I recon by the time you work out all those ANDs, you're left with a smaller group than the ones who would feel three lockouts is just one too many.

fuzzygeek wrote:I hate the idea of a single lockout.

I am considering recruiting to fill up to a 25M Flex Raid. I would then take 10 people for heroic 10M raiding. We'd swap people in and out (assuming they're good enough to carry their weight, which we can determine from flex performance, etc.), and we'd have a larger pool of raiders so if one person doesn't show we don't have to cancel raids.

This solves a few problems we and other guilds like mine have; putting everything on one lockout forces you to say, "Ok, we are a X-level guild, and that's all we can do. Fuck us for trying to have some flexibility."


The "single lockout" would be a single lockout between LFR and Flex, like there is a single lockout between Norm and Heroic. No one is suggesting one lockout for all 4 difficulties.

If I was in your guild, I would try gear myself well enough to be a desirable and therefore regular member of the 10-man team, so with multiple lockouts, I would feel the need to run LFR, Flex, and Norm every week, which can lead to "I am so damn tired of killing this stupid boss" syndrome. Imposing a single lock between LFR and Flex has your people just running your Flex and Norm runs. Bliz has not made move to do anything about the burnout factor, but they did historically such as the lockout change between ToC and ICC, so it is reasonable to think they may do in the future. If not this patch, then a future one.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:13 am

Darielle wrote:
Believe it or not, reading all the way back to the first page, I agree with you about the possibility of the current design leading to burnout.
The only difference is that you are intent on blaming the system for that possibility rather than looking in the mirror and blaming yourself instead.
The easiest solution has always been the one that you dismiss the most, the fact that the game, and anything you do in it, is a choice.


I'm not sure why you think blaming players for doing exactly what the system encourages is a player problem, and not a system problem.
Or that the easiest solution is to try and have people blame themselves for going along with what is encouraged when the entire point of encouraging that is to get them to go along with it.

Or to completely throw away the entire concept of game design to argue that anything is a "choice".


Encouraging =/= Forcing. You're the only one that makes the claim that the system, by its very nature, encourages you to do it. It is a player problem because the player is the one that consciously makes the decision to do everything and apparently wont stop unless the system limits him somehow.

And I say this as someone who did all the dailies, and who lost guildies to burnout. Although possibly the reason why I didn't burnout was because I chose which dailies to do. I didnt complete the anglers and the cloud serpent ones until 5.3

In the end, it was my own choice to do the dailies. Sure, Blizzard screwed up how valor gear works in 5.0 but they're never repeating that mistake again.

Sure, the game might benefit if Blizz changes things for Flex/LFR, in my case, I believe the best solutions are either the lockout or the thecks/thels solution -- but given that we're going into 5.4 without either of the two, the best solution available is to simply realize its an option and you have to consciously make the choice to do content you don't want to.

That's what I'll do, that's what Theck will do. That's what many others will do. Apparently, people learned from 5.0 and saw that you have a choice, and that includes not doing the content even if its there.
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