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[5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Thels » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:01 am

Meh, I'm gonna stick to Holy Avenger myself. DP's lack of a cooldown effect doesn't make it an option for me, which leaves SW and HA. Their HoPo generation per use are practically identical, and HA has a lower cooldown, so it'll be available more often.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby daishan » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:11 am

Has anyone sim'd them to work out there contribution to dps?

Obviously SW and HA favour fights where they line up with high veng portions of the fight.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Jackinthegreen » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:50 am

I imagine the winner will depend on the fight: How often the ability can be (or needs to be) used, and how important it is to use that ability at those particular times.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Thels » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:21 am

Let's return the discussion to Eternal Flame for a moment (and perhaps someone should change the title of the original message to include EF).

How do we optimize Eternal Flame output? With T16 4pc this is reasonably simple, since as long as you have at least 3 BoG, you don't care about HoPo for EF. Also, since you don't spend HoPo on EF, you thus spend more HoPo on SotR, and thus have more BoG than without the set bonus. You can simply refresh EF the moment you hit 5 BoG, or refresh it just before it runs out if you don't have 5 BoG yet at that point. Since it's off the GCD, you don't have to worry about pushing back CS/J like you would with SS.

However, things become a little more problematic without the set bonus. First, because you actually spend HoPo on EF, your BoG stacks will be lower. You suddenly need 18 HoPo every 30 seconds, rather than 15, to max out that 5 BoG. Secondly, you need to time your EF better. You preferably want to use EF at 5 HoPo and a generator available, so you still have 3 HoPo available in a time of need.

With the set bonus, EF will be great! Without the set bonus, it'll require both decent haste and skill to pull off well. Perhaps newer players should be recommended to stick to SS until they got the 4 piece?
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Worldie » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:36 am

Thels wrote:(and perhaps someone should change the title of the original message to include EF).

Done for you dear.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Diceone » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:48 pm

I think there's still something to be said about refreshing EF with a weaker version of itself.

During high tank damage portions of the fight, which is where these things really matter imo, there's a pretty high chance that you'll want to toss out another EF on yourself to save yourself from death. I've done this pretty often and there are times when I'm been tossing them out pretty frequently via DP when it's proccing a lot.

What I'm concerned about in these situations that doesn't apply to SS is that tossing out another EF to save yourself will result in a significantly smaller dot portion, which will throw the whole comparison out of whack.

Don't get me wrong, I'm probably going to switch to EF right away as well but there's some things we can do with SS that we can't do with EF because of the hopo cost that isn't exactly easily modelled. Doing things like refreshing Ss at high vengeance vs trying to get a larger EF rolling. SS it's a no brainer, but with EF your opportunity cost goes up a fair bit. With high haste and DP this isn't that big of a deal but is still something to consider.

I still think EF is good with or without the 4Pt16 but without it we're going to run into some weird situations. It's probably going to be amazing for the patchwork situations or aoe tanking even without the set bonus but thinking on fights on the ptr that have semi-frequent tank swaps or long periods where you cannot generate HoPo SS might be a more reliable option.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Thels » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:13 pm

Thanks Worldie.

Refreshing EF just because your vengeance is high won't work. SS is only based on vengeance. EF is also based on current HoPo and BoG. If your vengeance is higher, but your BoG stacks are lower, it's probably not worth it to refresh.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Paoanii » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:19 pm

Thels wrote:Thanks Worldie.

Refreshing EF just because your vengeance is high won't work. SS is only based on vengeance. EF is also based on current HoPo and BoG. If your vengeance is higher, but your BoG stacks are lower, it's probably not worth it to refresh.


Does the HoT benefit from BoG? I was under the impression that only the initial heal of EF scaled with BoG stacks. I could be wrong but I thought they changed that in MoP Beta when you could get 200k+ ticks from EF with mastery stacking.

Edit: You can ignore this, I read threads good. It's mentioned in another thread that it was changed at some point 5.3+.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:44 pm

Paoanii wrote:Edit: You can ignore this, I read threads good. It's mentioned in another thread that it was changed at some point 5.3+.

I think it was changed in 5.1.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Thels » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:27 am

I did a check to see what low haste values would have for an effect on this. I built a character that used exclusively ToT LFR gear with Strength/Stamina/Hit/Expertise/Mastery/Parry/Dodge, then gemmed and reforged for Hit > Expertise > Haste > Mastery > Dodge/Parry > Crit/Spirit. I pitted the character against a 25 man normal boss, assuming that'll be more in line with the content the character will be performing in T16. That might've been overshooting things.

The character: http://chardev.org/profile/66069-T15LFRSS.html
Sim results with SS: http://thels.nl/t15lfrss.html
Sim results with EF: http://thels.nl/t15lfref.html

With SS, TMI was only 300k. With EF, TMI was a grand 1.6m. And that's with the T15 bonus, which benefits EF more than SS.

I do expect that EF is only advantageous, if we have the haste to quickly build up some BoG stacks. If we don't, EFs output is going to be much lower, and will cause much bigger gaps in SotR.

EDIT: Also, 1% of the SotR were avoided. Does the human racial not apply to SotR in SimC? If so, is that a bug or an adequate representation of in-game?
Last edited by Thels on Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Schroom » Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:16 am

this would mean that there is a SS/EF Threshold. would be really curious what this Threshold might be :)
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby theckhd » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:27 am

Thels wrote:EDIT: Also, 1% of the SotR were avoided. Does the human racial not apply to SotR in SimC? If so, is that a bug or an adequate representation of in-game?

Definitely a bug, though I have no idea how that would've been introduced. I'll have to do some digging, was this with 530-7?
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Paoanii » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:03 am

Thels wrote:I did a check to see what low haste values would have for an effect on this. I built a character that used exclusively ToT LFR gear with Strength/Stamina/Hit/Expertise/Mastery/Parry/Dodge, then gemmed and reforged for Hit > Expertise > Haste > Mastery > Dodge/Parry > Crit/Spirit. I pitted the character against a 25 man normal boss, assuming that'll be more in line with the content the character will be performing in T16. That might've been overshooting things.

The character: http://chardev.org/profile/66069-T15LFRSS.html
Sim results with SS: http://thels.nl/t15lfrss.html
Sim results with EF: http://thels.nl/t15lfref.html

With SS, TMI was only 300k. With EF, TMI was a grand 1.6m. And that's with the T15 bonus, which benefits EF more than SS.

I do expect that EF is only advantageous, if we have the haste to quickly build up some BoG stacks. If we don't, EFs output is going to be much lower, and will cause much bigger gaps in SotR.

EDIT: Also, 1% of the SotR were avoided. Does the human racial not apply to SotR in SimC? If so, is that a bug or an adequate representation of in-game?



*whispers quietly* Psssssst, Thels. Your sim never used EF.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Thels » Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:03 am

theckhd wrote:
Thels wrote:EDIT: Also, 1% of the SotR were avoided. Does the human racial not apply to SotR in SimC? If so, is that a bug or an adequate representation of in-game?

Definitely a bug, though I have no idea how that would've been introduced. I'll have to do some digging, was this with 530-7?


Yes. I haven't checked with other races yet, to see if it's really the racial.

Paoanii wrote:*whispers quietly* Psssssst, Thels. Your sim never used EF.


Boy, do I feel stupid now!

Guess I'll have to mess with the action list. I'll try something tomorrow, if I have time for that, or perhaps Theck is willing to share the action list he used?
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Winkle » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:01 am

Having never used SimC i could be very wrong here but the default action list doesn't contain Eternal Flame. It has two lines for the use of sacred shield if selected as a talent but none for EF.
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