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[5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby ZorKesh » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:59 pm

gnumme wrote:Pls add another one downside factor: with EF we lose one of the best our o-shit! buttons - pure WoG.

it was mentioned here
You still temporarily sacrifice your ability to summon up a really big "oh-shit" heal, but that's significantly offset by the fact that you're getting a large, continuous stream of healing for 30 seconds and almost assuredly starting that 30-second period at full health thanks to the base heal.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby theckhd » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:27 am

gnumme wrote:Pls add another one downside factor: with EF we lose one of the best our o-shit! buttons - pure WoG.


That's not entirely true. We lose the huge 5-BoG-stack emergency heal, but we can still self-EF in an emergency. And we'll build up stacks of BoG fairly quickly at high haste, especially if we take Divine Purpose. So it's really only the short period immediately after the EF that's dangerous, because we don't have the large emergency heal. However, if banking properly, we should have the holy power for SotR/EF.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby theckhd » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:20 am

Some numbers to mull over. I'm using the trunk build of Simcraft (v530-7, SimC build r17386), which has all of the 5.4 changes implemented through PTR build 17116. SimC v530-6 is the latest release, and it's missing some things (along with several bugfixes I made while generating the results in this post). I'm using the action priority list:

Code: Select all
actions=/auto_attack
actions+=/avenging_wrath
actions+=/holy_avenger,if=talent.holy_avenger.enabled
actions+=/divine_protection
actions+=/eternal_flame,if=talent.eternal_flame.enabled&dot.eternal_flame.remains<2&buff.bastion_of_glory.react>3
actions+=/shield_of_the_righteous,if=(holy_power>=5)|(buff.divine_purpose.react)|(incoming_damage_1500ms>=health.max*0.3)
actions+=/hammer_of_the_righteous,if=target.debuff.weakened_blows.down
actions+=/crusader_strike
actions+=/judgment,if=cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5
actions+=/avengers_shield,if=cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5
actions+=/sacred_shield,if=talent.sacred_shield.enabled&((target.dot.sacred_shield.remains<5)&(cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5))
actions+=/hammer_of_wrath,if=cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5
actions+=/execution_sentence,if=talent.execution_sentence.enabled&cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5
actions+=/lights_hammer,if=talent.lights_hammer.enabled&cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5
actions+=/holy_prism,if=talent.holy_prism.enabled&cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5
actions+=/holy_wrath,if=cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5
actions+=/consecration,if=(target.debuff.flying.down&!ticking)&(cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5)
actions+=/sacred_shield,if=talent.sacred_shield.enabled&cooldown.crusader_strike.remains>=0.5


which is just the SimC default with a line appended to maintain Eternal Flame, but only recasts if we have 4+ stacks of BoG. I'm using Slootbag's character as our test subject and pitting him against the T15H25 boss (T15H in 530-6). The only thing I change is which L45 talent he has selected (EF or SS).

5.3 Results, 4T15:
EF: 313602 dps, 106138 dtps, 105735 hps, 339.5 TMI
SS: 315417 dps, 55366 dtps, 99790 hps, 150.3 TMI

5.4 Results, 4T15:
EF: 257571 dps, 107743 dtps, 106385 hps, 3979.9 TMI
SS: 258832 dps, 74490 dtps, 46100 hps, 10950.4 TMI

Note that this is with his current gear, i.e. without 4T16 (but with both T15 set bonuses), so it's a simulation of what will be preferential for the first week or two of progression. The buff to EF and nerf to SS clearly shift the balance in favor of EF by a fairly large margin.

We can artificially disable T15 set bonuses and enable T16 set bonuses using the code:
Code: Select all
tier15_2pc_tank=0
tier15_4pc_tank=0
tier16_2pc_tank=1
tier16_4pc_tank=1


Doing that, we get:

5.4 Results, 2T16:
EF: 252145 dps, 113765 dtps, 111276 hps, 9623.6 TMI
SS: 253640 dps, 80465 dtps, 52372 hps, 16518.3 TMI

5.4 Results, 4T16:
EF: 258854 dps, 106027 dtps, 105690 hps, 4097.9 TMI
SS: 253784 dps, 80441 dtps, 52372 hps, 16475.9 TMI

Note that TMI goes up by disabling the T15 bonuses, moreso for the EF setup since it's getting a significant benefit from the 2-piece (~45% uptime).

It looks like EF is stronger even without the 4-piece, but the 4-piece clearly makes it a lot stronger while having no effect on SS. This action priority list doesn't include any line to simulate emergency WoG usage, so the comparison isn't entirely fair, but it's a start. We could try and include emergency WoG usage with a line like
Code: Select all
actions+=/word_of_glory,if=incoming_damage_4500ms>health.max*0.7


Which would fire off a WoG if you took over 70% of your health in damage in the last 4.5 seconds.

Here are the links to the html output in case anyone wants to pick through them with a fine-toothed comb:
https://sites.google.com/site/theckhd/s ... ef_53.html
https://sites.google.com/site/theckhd/s ... ss_53.html
https://sites.google.com/site/theckhd/s ... ef_54.html
https://sites.google.com/site/theckhd/s ... ss_54.html
https://sites.google.com/site/theckhd/s ... _2T16.html
https://sites.google.com/site/theckhd/s ... _2T16.html
https://sites.google.com/site/theckhd/s ... _4T16.html
https://sites.google.com/site/theckhd/s ... _4T16.html
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Schroom » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:43 am

as always Theck amazing work. so my hunch was correct, that EF would surpass SS even without 4p.

I guess that HEAVY spike you notice in sloot_ef_54_4T16.html at the start of the fight is what I wrote about, that you start of the fight without protection and without BoG stacks so you are basically unprotected and should use a CD like DP to prevent that spike. but after that initial spike you should be amazingly smooth.

it is similar after each taunt if you don't keep EF up during Offtanking (i prefer running it on the other tank) although at least you should start with 5 BoG, so you only have to time it right to have those 3 HoPo when taunting. which is what I meant with "it needs better micromanagement"
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Thels » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:54 am

Do we actually still need 3 HoPo when we use the T16 bonus? My understanding was that if we have 3+ BoG, WoG (and thus EF) become free.

And of course, awesome work, Theck!
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby daishan » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:59 am

As of 4-5 days ago having 3 stacks of BoG was enough to be able to cast WoG/EF with the 4P regardless of how much HoPo you have.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Slootbag » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:58 am

Thels wrote:Do we actually still need 3 HoPo when we use the T16 bonus? My understanding was that if we have 3+ BoG, WoG (and thus EF) become free.


No, 3+ BoG just makes it free, there's certainly many options when starting an encounter other than just waiting for 3-5 BoG. Get a 1 BoG EF up if you want, use DP, don't tank first, etc, those first seconds of the fight can really be made less threatening in a few ways.

daishan wrote:As of 4-5 days ago having 3 stacks of BoG was enough to be able to cast WoG/EF with the 4P regardless of how much HoPo you have.


Yeah anything 3 or above BoG will make your next WoG/EF free and cast as if 3 HoPo were used.

---

Thanks Theck for crunching out the better numbers and aiding my crusade to use EF! Always appreciate the detailed work.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Thels » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:07 pm

theckhd wrote:5.3 Results, 4T15:
EF: 313602 dps, 106138 dtps, 105735 hps, 339.5 TMI
SS: 315417 dps, 55366 dtps, 99790 hps, 150.3 TMI

5.4 Results, 4T15:
EF: 257571 dps, 107743 dtps, 106385 hps, 3979.9 TMI
SS: 258832 dps, 74490 dtps, 46100 hps, 10950.4 TMI


Re-reading that, that's a pretty big difference in TMI. If we look at EF, which is getting buffed, our TMI still increases more than tenfold.

What is changing in 5.4 that makes us so much more vulnerable?
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby daishan » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:13 pm

Thels wrote:Re-reading that, that's a pretty big difference in TMI. If we look at EF, which is getting buffed, our TMI still increases more than tenfold.

What is changing in 5.4 that makes us so much more vulnerable?


Does TMI work like that tho?
10 times the TMI doesn't mean 10 times as spiky dmg intake, if I understood Thecks original blogs about TMI that is.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Thels » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:18 pm

I know it's not like we're taking 10 times the damage. However, it is a major difference. Sure, Vengeance is lower, and we no longer get any GC procs off CS, but neither feel like they would have that much impact on TMI.

It just feels like a big difference in numbers, and I wonder what changes cause these differences.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby theckhd » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:36 pm

Vengeance nerf, primarily. You're looking at a drop from ~231k Vengeance to ~191k.

Also note that the sim does cast Divine Protection shortly after the pull.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Schroom » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:17 pm

theckhd wrote:Vengeance nerf, primarily. You're looking at a drop from ~231k Vengeance to ~191k.

Also note that the sim does cast Divine Protection shortly after the pull.


mh... that's strange then where does this huge spike in the sim comes from I mentioned earlier? :>

while testing EF yesterday in Flex I basically, as Slootbag sugested, let or other tank start the fight (if posible) while I built some BoG stacks while waiting for my turn.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Thels » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:02 pm

Since I'm used to open with Holy Avenger, and have yet to find a reason to stop doing that, I don't consider "start of the fight" a real issue. However, I just checked one of the results, and Divine Protection was not glyphed, so it didn't reduce that much damage.

I'm surprised to see Vengeance having such an impact, but upon closer inspection, our HPS with 5.3 SS is way higher than our DTPS, which of course has a serious impact upon TMI. For all EF results, our HPS is slightly smaller than our DTPS, which makes the net total damage we take very small, and thus leave the end results to vary quite a bit more than when our HPS would either be way smaller or way higher than our DTPS

(Spoken about glyphs, all 6 glyphs are listed in the result, but the talents are a link. Since there are also only 6 talents, and talent names are often shorter than glyph names, wouldn't it make more sense to simply list the 6 talents as well? I guess this is a leftover from when talents were actually talent trees.)
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby theckhd » Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:28 pm

Didn't think to check whether Sloot had DP talented, but that would probably explain the early spike.

Regarding the talent reporting: yes, it probably would. Not really my department though. You should suggest it as an enhancement issue: https://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft/issues/list
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Agamemnan » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:31 pm

Nice work Theck! Glad to see the EF numbers panning out.

The arguments in favor of SS due to it saving you from a 1-shot aren't considering a key fact: If you were going to be one shot, you should be using a CD. You can't rely on SS to be that life saver as it might not have ticked to refresh in time for the hit.

Looking forward to 5.4. Lots of variables at play for pallies and we're in a good spot. Some meaningful decisions in talents now depending on the fight.

To clarify my statement on SW vs DP: DP will be favored for DPS and fishing for procs if you want to go that route. On fights that you need another reliable cooldown it will be very powerful with the uptime on SHotR and the 20% healing.
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