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T16 4-Piece, Haste-Capping, and You

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T16 4-Piece, Haste-Capping, and You

Postby Slootbag » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:17 pm

I didn't really see this around and I've been getting hammered with "what's your BiS list looking like next tier?" So I was hoping to open the discussion here as there is quite the confidence floating around our beloved community that Haste cap will be so easily reached next tier, that people are already thinking so far ahead of how they will gem/reforge etc after reaching that cap (50% or 21250 rating).

I'm going to play the guy who tells you there's no Santa Claus for a moment and tell you the truth that -- reaching Haste cap is not really easily doable next tier. At least, not nearly as much as some people think. A big culprit in outlining this problem is the trinket itemization next tier, with the loss of Spark/Feather we take a meaty Haste hit. However, there's always a silver lining.

I spent some time yesterday drawing together a preliminary BiS list with 4PT16 (used for obvious reasons, please refer to the raging EF vs SS debate), and the "hold your breath" haste results were pretty flaccid.

As quick glance, and without proper reforging/gemming for hit/exp caps, here is my unofficial and not finalized T16 BiS list.

http://ptr.wowhead.com/list=189590/new-list

There are some things to note here.
- Everything is WF (warforged, the new thunderforged) Heroic gear with double upgrades.
- We use the 2 BoA weapon/shield items, which are NOT upgrade-able but still yield more net Haste over the upgradeable weapons/shields available due to double sockets.
- We are using the tank legendary cloak, any other cloak has haste on it and will yield in the range of 600-650 haste if used.
- We're using the Juggernaut trinket in order to squeeze out some more haste here, when realistically the CD reduction trinket will be equally if not more viable often, which has stam and no haste. On that note, there's 5 viable prot trinkets next tier, and we will use them all depending on the fight frankly, so trinket slots add a further wild card to trying to haste cap.
- There's a couple of areas you can gem full haste and forgo the socket bonus, such as legs, but I personally always satisfy blue sockets with some stam. Stam is always good as a tank, and if it helps pick up a small bonus there's no reason not to.
- I'm sure there's a slightly more efficient way to reforge, but nothing that would yield a mass amount of haste. This was just slapped together for display/consideration purposes on this subject.
- Keep in mind that's a human with a sword, so if that doesn't apply to you you will need another 340 expertise.
- Finally, the percentage bonus from Thok's haste is not calculated in the haste number there, that must be done manually. The wf-heroic double upgraded trinket yields 9% haste. That's 18807 * 1.09 = 20500 haste (48.23%). Still a bit shy of cap.
- (I'm sure I'm forgetting something >>)

So is it possible to haste cap then next tier? Sure, there's things you can do.
- Not use 4-piece and get off-pieces with innate haste on them.
- Use Spark from last tier in the second trinket slot.
- Use another legendary cloak.
- Use the caster haste trinket as your second slot.
- Use more haste gear with crit on it.
- (Other stuff I'm forgetting)

Is it worth doing some of those things just for Haste cap? Probably not. Keep in mind, we also have the option to use haste elixirs (which will just barely take you over cap), and our haste windsong proc also starts to put us well over cap, which although minimal, probably will have a tiny impact on rotation during the uptime. And again, don't forget, these are all double upgraded wf heroic pieces, something that many won't get close to achieving due to progression and luck with wf gear.

Also, apologies ahead of time if this was talked about elsewhere and I missed it, I've seen it brushed lightly in other threads only. Hopefully that's not the case though.

Edit: Trinkets are a bit of a strange point atm, and the more I thought of it the more consideration I gave to some trinkets that you wouldn't think belong, that might actually belong, which consequently would help easily reach haste cap and more in this build. You can refer to http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33490&p=772361#p772361 for those thoughts.
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Re: T16 4-Piece, Haste-Capping, and You

Postby Thels » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:20 am

You're missing enchants on shoulders. :P

The trinkets have a big effect on it. When the 5.4 gear started popping up, there were two nice Haste trinkets available to us. 2x 2518 haste = 5036 haste. That would've been 25% of the haste cap from trinkets alone.

Now, you need 19496 haste rating to cap 21250 with a 9% bonus, meaning that the trinket provides 1754 haste rating in the most optimal situation. Quite a bit less than that 5036.

And by the time you got BiS, it doesn't really matter much anymore, as you already cleared the content.

http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=105621 has more haste on it than the weapon you suggest, even with one gem socket less.

http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=105407 and http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=105624 might be options to replace the neck and ring without haste on them. However, since they're agi items, you can't coin them, and should probably pass on them for the agi users, which again makes it a post progress issue.
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Re: T16 4-Piece, Haste-Capping, and You

Postby Slootbag » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:35 am

Aye good catch on the weapon, completely skipped my mind, but is still a minor haste gain. Also I didn't enchant shoulders just to be a rebel obviously.

Trinkets indeed were/are the problem. The main point of the post, which I suppose ended up being a tad verbose was that reaching that haste cap isn't nearly as easy or doable as people think until 2/2 BiS stuff, which as you said won't matter then. I don't want to start duplicating the trinket thread here, but there are options outside of what people think are the only options for mitigation/smoothing builds.
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33490&p=772361#p772361

Also dipping into agi gear is over the top imo. That's just a haste obsession that isn't worth it past a certain point. I mean we can also just go for haste/crit gear too and reforge the crit (much like with the boots). Either way it's a fun side project I do agree.
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Re: T16 4-Piece, Haste-Capping, and You

Postby Darrak » Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:43 pm

i got so bored that i've made this set30+-haste under the cap without 2nd trinket

EDIT: ups, i made a mistake, didn't reforge chest to haste so that makes just over 20k haste
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Re: T16 4-Piece, Haste-Capping, and You

Postby Samiam » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:44 pm

Solid Post Sloot, thanks. Just a couple Questions and I apologize if this has been covered already else where.

1. Besides the Proc on the tanking cloak, and assuming there will change to the healing cloak possibly making it spec specific. Wouldn't the DPS cloak with Haste be ideal? I noticed you using the healing one and getting sick EF heals.

2. I understand the advantage of haste, but by the time we get full BiS the tier is basicly over. So what would be the Ideal number if there is one or just go with as much as possible and maintaining the 4pc t16? Keeping in mind the trinket swapping we will do for encounters. But I guess you may have answered that question since the post is about being able to achieve the cap.

3. All things considered is this biS list what you think we should be aiming for?

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Re: T16 4-Piece, Haste-Capping, and You

Postby Darrak » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:53 pm

Samiam wrote:Solid Post Sloot, thanks. Just a couple Questions and I apologize if this has been covered already else where.

1. Besides the Proc on the tanking cloak, and assuming there will change to the healing cloak possibly making it spec specific. Wouldn't the DPS cloak with Haste be ideal? I noticed you using the healing one and getting sick EF heals.

2. I understand the advantage of haste, but by the time we get full BiS the tier is basicly over. So what would be the Ideal number if there is one or just go with as much as possible and maintaining the 4pc t16? Keeping in mind the trinket swapping we will do for encounters. But I guess you may have answered that question since the post is about being able to achieve the cap.

3. All things considered is this biS list what you think we should be aiming for?

Samiam
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1. DPS cloak is indeed better itemized but the tanking proc is way better for progression unless your raid's failing to beat a tight enrage timer

2. short answer: go for as much as u can have while using the essential tier items and trinkets
personally, i'll be going with 4T15 tank cloak +max haste from the beginning. When the 4T16(at least partly heroic) will become available to me i'll decide whether to use it, keep using T15 or switch to full haste mode.

3. these items(or their normal counterparts) would probably be the strongest(survivability-wise) option for progression of the last bit of content, after that I'd say it's safe to switch to full haste gear to get some nice ranks
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Re: T16 4-Piece, Haste-Capping, and You

Postby Slootbag » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:25 am

Darrak summed it up nicely.

Also just for the record for #1, the healing cloak had no impact on EF healing outside of it's proc. So EF heal size was really in no way affected I was just playing around with it for kicks. EF will be just as strong with tank or dps cloak.
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Re: T16 4-Piece, Haste-Capping, and You

Postby Fenrìr » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:36 am

hrm...so out of curiosity, did they make the change so you can have multiple 600 ilvl cloaks in your bags on the PTR? Sitting here debating on if I should swap out to the tank one now, ditching the dps one, or waiting until tomorrow to buy the tank one and have it in my bags to upgrade to the legendary mode.
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Re: T16 4-Piece, Haste-Capping, and You

Postby Fetzie » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:02 am

Fenrìr wrote:hrm...so out of curiosity, did they make the change so you can have multiple 600 ilvl cloaks in your bags on the PTR? Sitting here debating on if I should swap out to the tank one now, ditching the dps one, or waiting until tomorrow to buy the tank one and have it in my bags to upgrade to the legendary mode.


You can currently have one of each cloak on the PTR. I just bought a tank cloak, a healer cloak and an agility cloak on the PTR. It wouldn't let me buy a strength dps cloak as I already had one of those equipped.

The change to the tanking cloak (dodge rating to expertise rating) is not currently on the PTR, the cloak is still showing 916 dodge, 916 parry, 916 mastery. Maybe we need to twitter message GC to make sure that change gets implemented.
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Re: T16 4-Piece, Haste-Capping, and You

Postby Fenrìr » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:10 am

Alrighty...is there anything on the PTR that suggests you should only have one while you're completing the quest to upgrade to legendary? I remember reading somewhere that the cloak in the bag was being upgraded, not the one equipped.
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Re: T16 4-Piece, Haste-Capping, and You

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:32 am

Fetzie wrote:The change to the tanking cloak (dodge rating to expertise rating) is not currently on the PTR, the cloak is still showing 916 dodge, 916 parry, 916 mastery. Maybe we need to twitter message GC to make sure that change gets implemented.


Are you sure about that? It's showing up properly on wowhead:
http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=102250
Qian-Ying, Fortitude of Niuzao
Item Level 600
Upgrade Level 0/2
Binds when picked up
Back
1525 Armor
+1716 Strength
+2694 Stamina
+918 Parry (1.04% @ L90)
+918 Expertise (2.70 @ L90)
+918 Mastery (1.53 @ L90)


I don't have time to test it myself right now; got a screenshot?
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Re: T16 4-Piece, Haste-Capping, and You

Postby Fetzie » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:20 am

Give me a sec.

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There you are.

It might be that the legendary cloak has the correct stats, but I didn't get around to doing that quest on the PTR.

Asked Lore, got this reply:

Tom AkA Fetzie ‏@Fetzie_ 4m

@devolore @Warcraft tanking cloak on PTR still has the old stats: http://i.imgur.com/FHMFyNp.jpg

working as intended?


Josh Allen ‏@devolore 3m

@Fetzie_ @Warcraft I don't recall us planning to change that cloak. We did change the Legendary cloak from dodge to expertise IIRC.
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Re: T16 4-Piece, Haste-Capping, and You

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:30 pm

Oh, I thought you were talking about the Legendary one.
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