Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:39 am

The Flex/LFR thread is over there: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33506&start=450
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:43 am

Winkle wrote:
Barathorn wrote:Let me be more clear about my opinion for everyone. Adding lots of different levels doesn't actually make the game better, it drives player skill through the floor rather than through the ceiling. This results in a lesser playing experiance for everyone.


I'm not sure i agree with this. Is there any evidence to even suggest this hypothesis is true?

Remember its a game after all, if people fail, maybe they just give up?


I don't know, its the opinion I have on the matter based purely from my time here and in game so allow me to elaborate.

What people don't tend to factor in is that 'elite' players for want of a better term can get just as frustrated as 'average' players about availability of core 'product' and there are a hell of a lot less of them because not every one is good at gaming.

Every 'elite' player that leaves because of a change in levels of difficulty of core product leaves a 'bigger' skill hole than if an 'average' player quits I would suggest?

Therefore for every frustrated 'elite' player that leaves a hole appears in 'skill' thus driving the level down.

Compare WoW to EVE, where skill actually keeps you alive. You need skill to play EVE competitively but because their player base is primarily 'hardcore' players, one person leaving due to frustration about a change doesn't make as big a hole in the overall playerbase.

I am not sure if that makes sense, but I think it is what I 'feel'.

Or it could just be that people give up.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:51 am

Barathorn wrote:
Thankfully Thel's, Econ, Kysen and to a certain extent yourself Klaus explained what I had asked about but really all a few people wanted to do was jump down my throat for daring to have a different opinion simply because I said I was happy and yet sad about flex raiding?


The whole thing started because you said
What ever happened to being challenged and being rewarded for execution rather than amount of time thrown at the game?

I kinda like that I can raid with my friends but also hate the fact that as someone who use to heroic raid but who has no time to commit to it now that this is my option.

Easy fecking mode.


Only after people jumped on you, you decided to ask what the deal was about.

From the beginning, it was explained that Flex is supposed to bridge between LFR and Normal. Flex is harder than LFR, needs a more organized setting, but allows to have a variable number of raiders rather than the fixed number of people needed for Normals and Heroics, and is supposed to be easier than Normal... or rather, supposed to be comparable to how 10N were in Wrath in terms of difficulty.

Instead you came in pretty much akin to "I dont know what frappuccinos are, but I it sucks that they're available. Easy fucking mode compared to those that drink straight black coffee."
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Thels » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:54 am

Newsom wrote:
daishan wrote:I started raiding towards the end of WotLK, 10/25 on separate lockouts worked ok at the time but required most raiders to do far too much raiding in a size they liked less.

Near the end of ICC we talked about trying to move up to 25 man, non of the guild really wanted to be part of a 25 man but we also didn't like the 2nd class raider status 10 man had.

For me and my guild combining 10 and 25 is one of the best decisions Blizz ever made, it's allowed us to stay a small guild while still raiding some of the most challenging content.


And now we're almost back to 10 man being lower class of raiding again. I would argue it's just as hard to organize a 10 man guild (individual attendance needs to be a lot higher and setups matter a whole lot more versus needing to manage more people) but with Thunderforged/Warforged we're not just seing less loot, we're getting it at 6 item levels lower most of the time.

I think it's starting to become a problem, but Blizzard has made it no secret they'd rather people do 25s than 10s. The fact more people seem to prefer the intimacy of 10 man means jack shit.


It's not so much that they want to get rid of 10 man raiding, as they want to have a little more 25 man raiding. At the top end, 25 man raiding is more common than 10 man, but below that, there's a whole lot of 10 man raiding and a lot less 25 man raiding. It's a hindrance to people that want to raid 25 man, because there are barely any 25 man raids around.

However, I do think there are more elegant solutions than the Thunderforged option. For one, they could make it so that a lot more people could actually raid 25 man. A lot of people I know raid 10 man exclusively because their computers can't handle 25 man. You can't have Particle Density at low during raiding, as half the important stuff is invisible, so you need it on at least Fair. However, that means your computer will try to show all the spells that everyone around you is casting on Fair quality, and unless your computer is up to date on hardware, it's probably going to drop your FPS like a brick.

Allowing players to play 25 man with decent FPS without a top end PC would do a lot more for 25 man raiding than Thunderforged...
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:54 am

Barathorn wrote:What people don't tend to factor in is that 'elite' players for want of a better term can get just as frustrated as 'average' players about availability of core 'product' and there are a hell of a lot less of them because not every one is good at gaming.

Every 'elite' player that leaves because of a change in levels of difficulty of core product leaves a 'bigger' skill hole than if an 'average' player quits I would suggest?


*facedesk* that does sound like elitism, which is what Tera was commenting on.

Heroic raiders have their sandbox, who cares if other lesser players get their own sandbox as well? It's like if Heroic Raiders want to be the only ones that have access to sandboxes, forever.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Lieris » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:00 am

Thels wrote:However, I do think there are more elegant solutions than the Thunderforged option. For one, they could make it so that a lot more people could actually raid 25 man. A lot of people I know raid 10 man exclusively because their computers can't handle 25 man. You can't have Particle Density at low during raiding, as half the important stuff is invisible, so you need it on at least Fair. However, that means your computer will try to show all the spells that everyone around you is casting on Fair quality, and unless your computer is up to date on hardware, it's probably going to drop your FPS like a brick.


That's me. Even on 10 man during Cata I was tanking with 5-20fps depending on the fight/phase. 25 man slaughters my computer.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby daishan » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:04 am

Blizz should be doing much more to help guilds recruit, like making their recruitment forums useful instead of talking about removing realm forums -.-
Ofc easier recruitment would help 10 man raiding as well but I think it would be of greater benefit to 25's as they go through more players.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:11 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Barathorn wrote:What people don't tend to factor in is that 'elite' players for want of a better term can get just as frustrated as 'average' players about availability of core 'product' and there are a hell of a lot less of them because not every one is good at gaming.

Every 'elite' player that leaves because of a change in levels of difficulty of core product leaves a 'bigger' skill hole than if an 'average' player quits I would suggest?


*facedesk* that does sound like elitism, which is what Tera was commenting on.

Heroic raiders have their sandbox, who cares if other lesser players get their own sandbox as well? It's like if Heroic Raiders want to be the only ones that have access to sandboxes, forever.


Oh please it is hardly elitist to a/ ask where the challenge lies for people of a certain skill level b/ try to work out why 4 skill levels are needed when 3 would clearly suffice [point taken from Ironskin about what progression actually entails as I can understand that now], c/ frustration affecting all levels of play or d/ wanting to talk about the game and its direction and what is happening rather than trying to randomly score points on an internet forum?

FWIW WOW has no sandboxes, if you want a sandbox of your very own you need to play a sandbox game. WOW isn't that game. This is not about what skill level you possess, it is about fitting square pegs into round holes.

I would have thought anyone who has actually read anything that I posted over the last 6 years would know I am about as far from elite as you can get. That doesn't mean I don't understand points from both sides of the fence.

A lot of people seem to have 'soapboxes' as their mount of choice here now rather than trusty 'rational conversation'. It is that I take offense to.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:18 am

Ironshield wrote:Flex in progression will lead to min / maxing numbers. There is already a problem (and Blizz clearly have an issue with it - hence spreading around buffs / heroism etc) of min / maxing composition and getting sat because you play x class/spec when y has the toolbox for fight 5 is bad enough, getting sat for fight 5 because some EJ theorycrafted that the optimal number of people vs DPS requirement / whatever will be unfun.


I'm quite confident that the people at which Flex is aimed don't even know what EJ is ;) At least the vast majority of the,
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:25 am

Barathorn wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:
Barathorn wrote:What people don't tend to factor in is that 'elite' players for want of a better term can get just as frustrated as 'average' players about availability of core 'product' and there are a hell of a lot less of them because not every one is good at gaming.

Every 'elite' player that leaves because of a change in levels of difficulty of core product leaves a 'bigger' skill hole than if an 'average' player quits I would suggest?


*facedesk* that does sound like elitism, which is what Tera was commenting on.

Heroic raiders have their sandbox, who cares if other lesser players get their own sandbox as well? It's like if Heroic Raiders want to be the only ones that have access to sandboxes, forever.


Oh please it is hardly elitist to a/ ask where the challenge lies for people of a certain skill level b/ try to work out why 4 skill levels are needed when 3 would clearly suffice [point taken from Ironskin about what progression actually entails as I can understand that now], c/ frustration affecting all levels of play or d/ wanting to talk about the game and its direction and what is happening rather than trying to randomly score points on an internet forum?

FWIW WOW has no sandboxes, if you want a sandbox of your very own you need to play a sandbox game. WOW isn't that game. This is not about what skill level you possess, it is about fitting square pegs into round holes.

I would have thought anyone who has actually read anything that I posted over the last 6 years would know I am about as far from elite as you can get. That doesn't mean I don't understand points from both sides of the fence.

A lot of people seem to have 'soapboxes' as their mount of choice here now rather than trusty 'rational conversation'. It is that I take offense to.


I said sandbox as in an actual sandbox rather than a sandbox game, replace sandbox in my paragraph with playground or swingset or toys and you get the idea to what i am talking about.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:11 am

Amirya wrote:
Worldie wrote:As a new casual, I'm actually looking forward for flex. Just hope I can find a group of people willing to bring me through as well *pokes fellow alliance EU maintankadiners*

Do not feed the Flexbreaker.

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:16 am

Worldie wrote:
Ironshield wrote:Flex in progression will lead to min / maxing numbers. There is already a problem (and Blizz clearly have an issue with it - hence spreading around buffs / heroism etc) of min / maxing composition and getting sat because you play x class/spec when y has the toolbox for fight 5 is bad enough, getting sat for fight 5 because some EJ theorycrafted that the optimal number of people vs DPS requirement / whatever will be unfun.


I'm quite confident that the people at which Flex is aimed don't even know what EJ is ;) At least the vast majority of the,


I have to agree with Worldie here. As a guild we are capable of doing normal, gotten 3 new kills in 2 weeks after deciding on extending raid lockouts. But for us Flex is a good benefit because we can bring players who like group content but aren't a fan of the harder normal mode raids compared to LK, those who have a work schedule that lets them join us an hour after our start time, or who have to leave for work an hour before end time. So for us Flex is a tool to let us play with more of the guild and placing serious progression metrics against it seems like a waste.

Barathorn wrote:I think the issue I can't get my head around or convey properly is 'who' these people are for whom LFR is a cakewalk and normal is too difficult.


I'll toss out an example for comparison of normal vs LFR. Tortos has a big AOE that you interrupt or else it deals high damage. On normal letting it go off is a raid wiper, no other outcome from it exists, on progression even letting it go for 1 second (2 ticks) is usually enough to wipe the raid. On LFR you don't have to interrupt it at all, it barely does any damage and what damage it does is basically covered by blanket AOE healing.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Ironshield » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:32 am

Worldie wrote:
Ironshield wrote:Flex in progression will lead to min / maxing numbers. There is already a problem (and Blizz clearly have an issue with it - hence spreading around buffs / heroism etc) of min / maxing composition and getting sat because you play x class/spec when y has the toolbox for fight 5 is bad enough, getting sat for fight 5 because some EJ theorycrafted that the optimal number of people vs DPS requirement / whatever will be unfun.


I'm quite confident that the people at which Flex is aimed don't even know what EJ is ;) At least the vast majority of the,

Indeed and as it stands that sort of min/maxing shouldn't be necessary to beat it, but I was specifically arguing against the tech being used in normal / heroic raids.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:33 am

Ironshield wrote:Indeed and as it stands that sort of min/maxing shouldn't be necessary to beat it, but I was specifically arguing against the tech being used in normal / heroic raids.


oh...which is why it will never be done for "serious raiding."
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Dion » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:35 am

Klaudandus wrote:I said sandbox as in an actual sandbox rather than a sandbox game, replace sandbox in my paragraph with playground or swingset or toys and you get the idea to what i am talking about.

You seem to imply that users of said sandbox, playground or toys are petty, mean and antisocial. You do realize that those things are for kids, not for adults? If there is one group of humans that are social and accept all the different kind of people without blinking and generally get along even when they don’t speak same language, it's the users f said sandboxes, toys and swingset. It even gets easier when they get bigger until they grow up as growing up basically is that they realize that they have been lied their whole life about how to behave as adults ignore their own teachings. (Don’t steal, don’t lie, it’s wrong to hurt a person etc.)
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Jabari » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:53 am

Flex wrote:I'll toss out an example for comparison of normal vs LFR. Tortos has a big AOE that you interrupt or else it deals high damage. On normal letting it go off is a raid wiper, no other outcome from it exists, on progression even letting it go for 1 second (2 ticks) is usually enough to wipe the raid. On LFR you don't have to interrupt it at all, it barely does any damage and what damage it does is basically covered by blanket AOE healing.


LOL, Flex vastly undersold what all is involved with that. Not only do you have to interrupt it, but you have to:
a) Actually get the first turtle down in time before the first breath, which isn't trivial at times for progression groups because there are three of them and everybody has to attack the same one, and actually do the DPS to it that's required,
b) Have enough communication to not "waste" kicks (multiple people kicking at the same time, wasting one), but...
c) Have people in position where if the designated kicker gets thrown in the air en-route then someone else can jump in and hit it.
d) Actually kick them the correct direction, and not too early (both of which I've seen screwed up, even in normal).
e) And this is only one part of the fight, not the whole thing! You still have a healing CD rotation for Quake Stomp, a non-trivial tanking/healing HP threshold for the bat tank, DPSing the bats down in time before the next Stomp hits, etc etc.


Barathorn wrote:I think the issue I can't get my head around or convey properly is 'who' these people are for whom LFR is a cakewalk and normal is too difficult.


You really need to jump into a group that's randomly advertising "LF a <healer/dps>, fresh ToT, guild group, pst". If they don't say they're full-clearing or close, the odds are that they're stuck on Horridon. (If not, they're almost definitely stuck on Tortos.) You'll see really fast who "these people" are. :lol:
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:57 am

I've only done ToT LFR once, since we're extending now I do the wings we've completed in normal on LFR for my chances at Secrets. I went as DPS and didn't even notice if any turtles were actually kicked or not.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:00 am

Or durumu. Or Dark Animus. Or Lei Shen.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Newsom » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:00 am

You don't really have to kick them in LFR, the breath does almost no damage.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Ruldar » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:54 am

Heh. According to the armory I have 25 LFR Tortos kills between two different characters (holy crap), and I cannot recall seeing the breath interrupted more than a handful of times. Stepping up to a version of the encounter where it has to be quickly interrupted every single time or everyone dies would be a pretty astonishing difference. That does more to explain the addition of Flex then just about anything I've seen yet.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:33 pm

More examples perhaps?

Horridon: eat a Double Swipe and you're dead. Do not pass go, do not collect 1000$. Same if choose not to interrupt. Or not to dispel. Also, you can't just ignore Jalakk.

Dark Animus: 'nuff said.

Lei Shen: the difference is just *what*. Decapitate fail? Start Over. Pillar leveled? Start over. Someone fucks a Boucing? Start over. Someone fucks a Shock? Start over. Someone decided stacking on Diffused Lightning is fun? See above. Add to that dps requirement that are far from trivial. Just ask bldavis the difference between LFR and Normal...
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Koatanga » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:34 pm

We're one of those raids for which LFR is cakewalk and Norm is difficult. I guess since it's nigh unto inconceivable for many here, that makes me a bit of a scrub, which is disappointing to me because last xpac we finished heroic on each raid.

We have had some turnover in between, and had some issues in the healing department that have been addressed so we are progressing a bit now, but we're stuck on Durumu at the moment.

We also sit 2-3 people each raid, so Flex is going to be good for us in that regard. We also want to recruit, so Flex will be good for us to pick up the higher end of LFR raiders and maybe transition some into normal mode raiding.

The real tough thing I have is when we have a fight like Durumu, having my people work on what they need to work on in LFR is meaningless, since LFR largely ignores the issues we need to work on. I need my people locating the white flash and marking it so we can avoid it with the red beam, and I need people practicing sweeping the red beam properly. But in LFR the beams are sprayed around willy-nilly until stuff falls over. You can't use it to practice mechanics.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Thels » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:55 am

Koatanga wrote:The real tough thing I have is when we have a fight like Durumu, having my people work on what they need to work on in LFR is meaningless, since LFR largely ignores the issues we need to work on.


Or like completely changes the fight, a la Durumu and Dark Animus.

Dark Animus however can be a raid wiper if both tanks take one massive (no idea why, but a lot of tanks seem to want to do that), and half the DPS is on the massives, while the other half is on the boss.



Koatanga wrote:I need my people locating the white flash and marking it so we can avoid it with the red beam, and I need people practicing sweeping the red beam properly. But in LFR the beams are sprayed around willy-nilly until stuff falls over. You can't use it to practice mechanics.


Actually, you want to avoid the white flash with the blue beam, not the red one. Whoever gets the blue beam should check if the white/blue flash is anywhere close. If it's not, stand absolutely still until the beams are gone. If it is, move away from the flash, and then stand absolutely still until the beams are gone. The red beam can touch the white/blue flash just fine.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Teranoid » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:49 am

Lava Burst and Lava Lash nerfs rescinded and Echo now behaves differently against player targets.

Because y'know that wasn't what we said needed to happen in the first place or anything.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Jabari » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:00 am

Teranoid wrote:Lava Burst and Lava Lash nerfs rescinded and Echo now behaves differently against player targets.

Because y'know that wasn't what we said needed to happen in the first place or anything.


Did they do the same to Arcane Shot yet?

It's odd, the numbers for Lash looked familiar - isn't that what it was before the latest buff (in either 5.1 or 5.2, can't remember)? It's like they almost can't figure out what ENHs current capability actually is, so they keep moving it back and forth randomly.

The Arcane shot change I don't get at all. I completely understand why they made the +50% focus/damage change (it was getting to the point like late Cata where it was all-arcanes all the time, no Cobras needed), but going +50% focus/+25% damage is a pretty good-sized nerf to sustained DPS, to a class that really wasn't topping the charts as it was.

Can't see notes from here, any other interesting new-changes for other classes?
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