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5.4 Trinkets

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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Promdates » Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:54 pm

It no longer reduces the cd for Devotion Aura.

Thock's is also 5% LFR 6% Flex/Normal 7% NWF/H 8% HWF.
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Darrak » Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:45 pm

just checked on ptr(553ilvl), it reduces CD of

Divine Protection (25s)
Divine Shield (2.08m)
Ardent Defender (2.5m)
Hand of Protection (4.17m)
Guardian of Ancient Kings (2.5m)
Avenging Wrath
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Darrak » Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:53 pm

Treck wrote:I think we will have issue dropping two hit/haste trinkets into 2x stamina trinkets and still hitting haste caps.
I honestly havnt played around with any 572 gearsets yet to see how high we go, but since we will likely keep current 4piece for a while (seems like you really only want to go t16 4p for EF, and little point going 2x 2piece) aka you will swap 4p for 4p, and that will take a while.
As a BiS setup, I have to say that I am not very excited about the trinkets anymore.


i tried to build a heroic(non-WF) item set a while back.
With 14% thok, stamina trinket, tanking leg cloak and 2/5 t16(haste pieces obv) i got around 1k haste over the cap
it included 2 crit/haste items(boots and ring)

EDIT:
something like this itemz
Haste rating 22093 +(1767 Thok)
Mastery rating 8495(11495) +(920 Thok)

Expertise rating 5269
Hit rating 2642

Critical s. rating 2244
Parry rating 766
Dodge rating 265

-------
that means in this gear thok grants just a tiny bit less secondary stats than regular haste trinket reforged to mastery(+- ofc) 2447 vs 2520, or with a mastery buff about 200 more - 2687 vs 2520
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Treck » Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:58 pm

With Thok beeing 14% yeh its nice, really nice.
But since its no longer 14% and is now 8% heroic warforged 2/2, And im going to go right out and cut that 2687 to about half.
Maybe it was a bit to strong before? But I wouldnt say so tbh.
Sure its got a predictable ICD and lots of str procc, but with it beeing 580ilvl, it feels like it should be better than a 549trinket should it not?
And What I mainly meant about the post was that Im not very excited about the trinkets this tier at all anymore.
They might be better than currently but t16 trinkets should be better than t15?

I did also say that Dropping both trinkets for survivability trinkets is likely going to be issues.

Usually gearing up is about how big the upgrades are, and you want to feel like "i hope that thingy drops so i can feel more powerfull", but currently its like "meh ill take it I guess"
I dont even know what i would even coin if anything the first week on normalmode, cause even if its +4 ilvls (plus the upgrade) theres not really anything i feel like I "have" to have.
Not even a setbonus to go for, just stats stats and stats. Mainly on the odd item you have that doesnt give haste (weapon) where you can find a nice upgrade, and the offset I guess if its got more sockets, but yeh not to excited about the gear there.

And as I mentioned earlier, I like the design of the CD reduction trinket, and its awesome it comes with stamina since if you want survivability theres no other better trinket.

Promdates wrote:It no longer reduces the cd for Devotion Aura.

Thats true, actually remember they removed it, if i remember right the only "raid" CD considered still is monks Avert Harm i think.
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Darrak » Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:12 am

Treck wrote:With Thok beeing 14% yeh its nice, really nice.
But since its no longer 14% and is now 8% heroic warforged 2/2, And im going to go right out and cut that 2687 to about half.
Maybe it was a bit to strong before? But I wouldnt say so tbh.


the numbers above are after the nerf aka 8%

but u got a point with the item upgrades, the only thing i really want from normal is the stam/CD trinket, everything else is just a few extra stats...
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Sagara » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:20 pm

Seeing the final numbers on Tokh, I'm really thinking about keeping a strong Spark of Zandalaar, honestly.
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Treck » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:25 pm

Darrak wrote:Haste rating 22093 +(1767 Thok)
Mastery rating 8495(11495) +(920 Thok)

I am amazed I didnt even have the napkin math skills to realize 1767 is less than 10% of 22093...
Not saying its worse than current trinkets (580vs 549) but It will likely be feather that we replace with thok just due to so much Hit, and while you might be able to stay just around hit cap, you are likely doing so with sub optimal reforges.
And Spark is just awesome, and 549 feather doesnt drop for tanks xD
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Dael » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:28 am

I was a bit disappointed to see that the duration of both Spark and Feather down to 10 seconds from 20...

Feather is str gain / 1 sec instead of 2, down to 10 seconds from 20.

Thok may be a sort of decent option, perhaps meh at best.
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Ater » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:09 am

Treck wrote:And Spark is just awesome, and 549 feather doesnt drop for tanks xD


We have had so many heroic thunder forge Feathers drop that everyone and their mothers has one, for their OS..... we still haven't seen a single heroic Spark drop and more then one in our group is coining for it each week. RNG is a bitch.
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Slootbag » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:22 pm

Edit: should have looked above before posting
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Slootbag » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:34 pm

Dael wrote:Thok may be a sort of decent option, perhaps meh at best.


Idk, I see Thok's as a pretty amazing trinket, even with it's nerfs. It plays to Paladin's for every single bonus, especially if/when there will be a shift to EF. DPS increase is just icing on the cake. For a 4P BiS build (see my other post), ~1700 haste, ~1000 mastery, crit healing added to our EF, and a str proc? Yes please! That's about 2700 static rating on a trinket, slightly above 580ilvl budget of other trinkets with static stats by about 200 rating.
Also the CD reduction trinket (vial) is undeniably good as well for obvious reasons, DP being a big one.
The life steal was bugged and might be better when fixed, especially in aoe or high vengeance situations.

I don't personally see a spot for T15 trinkets in a T16 BiS list just to squeeze out some more haste. The T16 trinkets are actually quite good imo, not to mention the unfortunate nerfs as you said to T15 trinkets.

Also, Thok's is 9% in 2/2 h-wf I believe, not 8%.

I'm surprised honestly there hasn't also been consideration given yet to two other trinkets. With a 'thinking outside the box' mentality, I'm fairly confident 2 caster trinkets are strong considerations in our 2nd trinket slot for mitigation builds.
Since I'm a Thok's advocate, why not goes balls out and use the caster amp trinket too (Purified Bindings of Immerseus)? Literally the same thing with an Int proc. Yeah obviously int isn't ideal, but at least it has use with increasing spell crit, which means EF crits and some offensive crits too. That's another ~2800 rating worth of static rating for haste/mastery, with yet another bonus to crit damage/healing. That's a pretty big deal in my books, and consequently gets you right about to haste cap based on that 4P build I posted.
The second option is Black Blood of Y'shaarj. 2520 static haste rating for 580ilvl, so if you want your haste, there you go. It has a feather's style stacking int RPPM proc. With respect to int, see previous paragraph, yes it actually has uses.

Just some thoughts...

Edit: Added stuff after the thok 9% line.
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Dael » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:45 am

Well a BiS build is all well and good, but if it only becomes really a clear winner above other trinkets (heroic tf Spark for one and most likely the stamina trinkets otherwise) at that point then it sort of shows how lacklustre it is in my opinion.

Gear is fairly useless if you can't actually utilise it for progression (and since this is the last raid of the expansion, it's unlikely to prove useful beyond SoO as well) and from an academic point of view being able to test different builds/specs/gear in a live environment once you're just farming the content could prove interesting but otherwise doesn't serve a lot.

While EF builds seem to be building some steam in the community leading up to the release of 5.4, testing them with gear that you'll unlikely have access to when you need it (who would give a prot paladin healing trinkets over a healer?) may lead to builds which could be plausible but only at a fairly basic level.

EF is a powerful tool in the right situation but I'd guess that you will perhaps lose too much of your own survivability spending DP procs on healing than keeping up SoR, the bonus healing on the caster is obviously a big part of it's new appeal alongside the nerfs to SS.

My question would be whether the loss of that would demean it's efficiency compared to just using WoG on the raid in the same situations you'd use EF, spot healing with WoG currently doesn't generate that much overall healing but can save people just because of the burst. Even if EF does more healing over the course of the fight, you may lose that ability to just keep someone alive from the tick or whatever of damage that kills them.
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby daishan » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:15 am

Dael wrote:My question would be whether the loss of that would demean it's efficiency compared to just using WoG on the raid in the same situations you'd use EF, spot healing with WoG currently doesn't generate that much overall healing but can save people just because of the burst. Even if EF does more healing over the course of the fight, you may lose that ability to just keep someone alive from the tick or whatever of damage that kills them.


Doesn't EF have the same instant heal on cast as WoG it's just you gain the HoT part after the initial cast?
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Schroom » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:31 am

the instant heal on EF is even bigger than the WOG instaheal.
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Re: 5.4 Trinkets

Postby Slootbag » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:40 pm

Dael wrote:Well a BiS build is all well and good, but if it only becomes really a clear winner above other trinkets (heroic tf Spark for one and most likely the stamina trinkets otherwise) at that point then it sort of shows how lacklustre it is in my opinion.

Gear is fairly useless if you can't actually utilise it for progression (and since this is the last raid of the expansion, it's unlikely to prove useful beyond SoO as well) and from an academic point of view being able to test different builds/specs/gear in a live environment once you're just farming the content could prove interesting but otherwise doesn't serve a lot.

While EF builds seem to be building some steam in the community leading up to the release of 5.4, testing them with gear that you'll unlikely have access to when you need it (who would give a prot paladin healing trinkets over a healer?) may lead to builds which could be plausible but only at a fairly basic level.

EF is a powerful tool in the right situation but I'd guess that you will perhaps lose too much of your own survivability spending DP procs on healing than keeping up SoR, the bonus healing on the caster is obviously a big part of it's new appeal alongside the nerfs to SS.


It doesn't though, I'm fairly confident the amp trinket (for example) in it's normal ilvl provides about 1100-1200 haste and about 400-500 mastery, for current gear levels (not to mentioned the crit portion), and is roughly as good as h-tf spark (just slightly behind on base stats), especially with the incoming nerf to spark and to RPPM. And toss in the use of EF and it pulls ahead not to mention that it will scale way better with increasing gear, which is a big part of progression. It especially plays to EF, not the other way around. You don't need amp trinkets to make use of EF (or frankly any new gear, the buffs to EF and nerfs to SS speak for themselves almost next tier).

Also not sure what healing trinkets you're talking about, nothing was proposed for healing. What I said was a caster trinket(s), and given what the trinket it is (it's passive stats), it's not ludicrously out of line to request that trinket over a strength trinket, which we've been using in place of normal tank trinkets basically the whole expansion. The only difference is an int proc instead of a str one. Int still gives us some form of benefit, especially with EF. Also not sure what you were referring to with "the bonus healing on the caster is obviously", which caster thing?

Even without 4P (and Theck even just recently posted on this too with his SimC) EF is worth it. Using EF every 30s instead of SotR (without 4PT16) is in no way losing too much survivability, especially with a DP haste build.

Dael wrote:My question would be whether the loss of that would demean it's efficiency compared to just using WoG on the raid in the same situations you'd use EF, spot healing with WoG currently doesn't generate that much overall healing but can save people just because of the burst. Even if EF does more healing over the course of the fight, you may lose that ability to just keep someone alive from the tick or whatever of damage that kills them.


What Schroom said, EF has WoG built in essentially.
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