Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby benebarba » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:54 am

Worldie wrote:Well pugging felt much less horrible back in vanilla / tbc.

But then, maybe it was also because you weren't expecting other random people met in /4 to be heroic raiders back then.



I actually wonder (since I wasn't around then) about this, among other colorful recollections of the by-gone glory days.

Did the community at large just eventually become adverse to players still learning the ropes, and players who simply weren't as skilled? Or is it more of selective memories? Maybe both? I mean, I hear plenty of stories about how all the dungeon groups were T3h Aw3som3, and how everyone in heroics was uber leet. But I don't hear many stories like 'yeah, we took this new tank on who didn't know what they were doing and helped them out'.

Sadly, I have nothing to compare to, since I joined well after LFD was introduced in Wrath and had plenty of absolutely horrid experiences in it as a new tank... so to me, the game experience has always been finding the decent, patient and fun folk amongst the trolls and haters, and then finding ways to avoid the trolls and haters. But somehow I can't imagine these folks were a new phenomenon.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby halabar » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:36 am

benebarba wrote:
Worldie wrote:Well pugging felt much less horrible back in vanilla / tbc.

But then, maybe it was also because you weren't expecting other random people met in /4 to be heroic raiders back then.



I actually wonder (since I wasn't around then) about this, among other colorful recollections of the by-gone glory days.

Did the community at large just eventually become adverse to players still learning the ropes, and players who simply weren't as skilled? Or is it more of selective memories? Maybe both? I mean, I hear plenty of stories about how all the dungeon groups were T3h Aw3som3, and how everyone in heroics was uber leet. But I don't hear many stories like 'yeah, we took this new tank on who didn't know what they were doing and helped them out'.

Sadly, I have nothing to compare to, since I joined well after LFD was introduced in Wrath and had plenty of absolutely horrid experiences in it as a new tank... so to me, the game experience has always been finding the decent, patient and fun folk amongst the trolls and haters, and then finding ways to avoid the trolls and haters. But somehow I can't imagine these folks were a new phenomenon.


It's also different demographics in the game now, some with less social skills, and less experience with other "social" gaming. I think folks who grew up in the days of D&D and LAN parties were a bit better socially-wise in WoW, since in their prior gaming you could get punched if you were a troll in game.. :D
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby benebarba » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:42 am

halabar wrote:It's also different demographics in the game now, some with less social skills, and less experience with other "social" gaming. I think folks who grew up in the days of D&D and LAN parties were a bit better socially-wise in WoW, since in their prior gaming you could get punched if you were a troll in game.. :D


Yeah, it is actually pretty interesting how hard a time 'that guy' can have finding a D&D group that will actually let them play with them. I've seen plenty of folks politely not invited back ;)
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:45 am

Your reputation was also highly at stake. If you were a dps and got blackballed for being a giant dick in groups (whether it be your attitude, your dps, your social skills, your ninja skills or whether or not you just left a group whenever you damn well felt like it) then you suffered the repercussions of seeing your name get shot down all over Trade for your bad behaviour. Which meant you were going to have a pretty hard time finding groups. Now? People can do whatever the fuck they like because it will have no bearing whatsoever on them getting a dungeon group run the next time they queue up for RDF or LFR.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Lieris » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:13 am

Yep if you had a horrible reputation in Classic/TBC, you weren't ever going to get a group. Certain people were pariahs on their realms and everyone had them on their ignore lists. This kept people in line pretty well and helped regulate AFKing, ninja looting, sabotage and bad manners because everyone knew the consequences of such behaviour. I am not saying it didn't happen at all but you had the means to pay them back for that ten fold as everyone read the realm forums and word of mouth spread very quickly.

I liked having a huge friend list of people who weren't in my guild but who I enjoyed doing dungeons with. It was a very social experience. Some people will moan about having to wait too long for groups but that was more to do with a lack of tanks than anything else and these days there are a lot more of them out there and they are a lot easier to play.

I had a great experience as a new tank in TBC because I was the sort of person who read up stat and ability guides first and I guess I was the sort of gamer that early WoW was really aimed at. It was the same with DPSers in that there were a lot of them out there so almost everyone tried to get at least a rudimentary knowledge of their class because they knew if they didn't, they would struggle to get into groups.

You remove these consequences and it's inevitable that the general player base will be less social and be of poorer ability. It has also created a gulf in ability between the heroic raiders (whose raids are as hard if not harder than ever) and everyone else making the step up even more difficult which in turn makes it even harder for the heroic guilds to recruit as there isn't any new blood coming through.

tl;dr there should be consequences to being an arsehole and/or being terrible at the game but there aren't any in contemporary WoW thanks to LFD/LFR and this has destroyed the community especially on a server level.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:23 am

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Join me Lieris! *rocks back and forth*
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Lieris » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:32 am

One mo...

*adopts 20 cats from the shelter, buys walking stick and a shawl from the charity shop*

Okay I am ready!

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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:41 am

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby halabar » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:43 am

Nikachelle wrote:Your reputation was also highly at stake. If you were a dps and got blackballed for being a giant dick in groups (whether it be your attitude, your dps, your social skills, your ninja skills or whether or not you just left a group whenever you damn well felt like it) then you suffered the repercussions of seeing your name get shot down all over Trade for your bad behaviour. Which meant you were going to have a pretty hard time finding groups. Now? People can do whatever the fuck they like because it will have no bearing whatsoever on them getting a dungeon group run the next time they queue up for RDF or LFR.



Quite true. Once things went cross-realm, there was certainly a slow slide into asshatedness.

Of course, pre RDF and LFR were also the days where you were happy to get one dungeon done a night, if you were lucky. (The dungeons were longer too, but the pace of the content also supported that).

It's a changed world with cross-realm everything, and the increased pace of the content.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Nooska » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:46 pm

You can keep the cats, but can you find one more chair? I wanna come hang out.

Also I agree that the early demographic was likely used to playing pen and paper games and LAN parties where you wanted to get invited back (to share the pirated games... erh.. I mean the porn.. erhh.. I mean the sodas, yup definately the sodas), so more skille dat actually behaving (I'm not very socially skilled, I'm actually socailly handicapped, but I've learned enough of what to do and what not to do, to generally stay on the "correct" side of the social divide - I'm an aspie, for those curious).

LFD and LFR was good for the game on a lot of levels, but it did definately make the "quiet douchebag" and "Loud prick" people have an easier time - honestly I wouldnt go back though...

*remembers waiting for 2 guildise to come online for an hour before trudging to the dungeon and spending 60 minute sin the heoric (if not more) while definately wiping to trash once or twice, as well as bosses every once in a while if someone screwed up.*

Yeah it was a more pleasent atmosphere, but it meant I could do maybe 5 or 6 dungeons per week, rather than do whatever I have the time for now.

Yeah, internet generation attention span (IGAS! coined here)
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Lieris » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:03 pm

Ultimately though the bad things that came with LFD/LFR greatly out weigh the good and they are two of the biggest reasons why the game's popularity is in free fall.

Blizzard thought they could retain all their existing players and bring in new ones, attracted to the idea of easy gear and easy progression but a lot of us have moved on because Heroic isn't worth the time investment when you can finish the raid week 1 on normal and being able to see all the raid content while auto attacking with no wipes is not retaining the newer players either. Not even pandering (hoho) to the Asian market with this expansion has grown the game. They greedily thought they could keep growing the game but they have fallen flat on their arse.

WoW is far from unsalvageable and all those lost subs are not all gone for good but as well as a F2P model they need to:

- Revamp the character models. Enough excuses, get this done!

- Base the next expansion somewhere that gets former WoW nerds excited (Emerald Dream or ocean based with Undermine, Kul Tiras, Zandalar etc).

- Have a big bad and make people want to kill him/her. A real bastard with a proper character arc who feels dangerous and who they can slap on the box. Deathwing was just a guy who changed the world overnight in a patch and sometimes killed your alts while out levelling but despite how poorly he was implemented, I think the idea of killing him kept more than a few people subscribed.

- Rethink the entire progression system. LFR/LFD, gone.

- Challenging dungeons (think Magister's Terrace) with worthwhile rewards coming out every raid tier, maybe even have them be an alternative progression path for non-raiders and as a pre-raid catch up system.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Lieris » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:08 pm

Oh and get rid of whoever thought it was a good idea to shovel dailies down everyone's throat while also removing faction championing via tabards.

Then change all the locks.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby halabar » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:10 pm

Sure... let's...

Eliminate casual content, and force socialization. No more random groups.

Make all dungeons take at least an hour to run, 3 is better.

Rehash old lore that new players don't care about.

Bound to be a winner. :roll:
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby halabar » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:13 pm

Lieris wrote:Oh and get rid of whoever thought it was a good idea to shovel dailies down everyone's throat while also removing faction championing via tabards.

Then change all the locks.


The way to fix dailies is make them weekly. Barrens is a step in the right direction. All the other capped stuff should be weekly, not daily. Even the farm. 7 sets of crops a week, and then you let it rest.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:24 pm

halabar wrote:Sure... let's...

Eliminate casual content, and force socialization. No more random groups.

Make all dungeons take at least an hour to run, 3 is better.

Rehash old lore that new players don't care about.

Bound to be a winner. :roll:

Aside from rehashing old lore, the rest was BC to a T. So, yep, sign me up for that please.

Why does everyone want to be able to just play this game on their own time? It's so much more enriching to play with people and to make new friends. Everything this game has gone towards it just abolishing all of that. Have we really become so damn anti-social that no one wants to make the effort anymore? Ugh.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Amirya » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:29 pm

halabar wrote:Sure... let's...

Eliminate casual content, and force socialization. No more random groups.

Make all dungeons take at least an hour to run, 3 is better.

Rehash old lore that new players don't care about.

Bound to be a winner. :roll:

1. Agreed, LFD is full of dicks. My favorite this month is the idiot healer who called me out for aggroing mobs that...I didn't aggro, because I was a passenger on the Obsidian Nightwing. Sadly, shamans don't come with reins.

2. It doesn't need to be an hour or three, it just needs to be challenging. The lolfaceroll method is boring, it doesn't matter what role I'm playing.

3. What makes you think new players won't care about the old lore? If done right, it can be a huge draw. Frankly, even as a long time player, I couldn't care less about Pandaria and its lore. It's awful. Near as I can tell, I'm actually supposed to go buy Blizzard endorsed books to read about the lore, as opposed to getting it in game and having a book expand on it. All I know is that Jaina's hair turned white when she blew up Theramore, and I don't know why she did (and really, I don't care either).
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Lieris » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:36 pm

halabar wrote:Sure... let's...

Eliminate casual content, and force socialization. No more random groups.

Make all dungeons take at least an hour to run, 3 is better.

Rehash old lore that new players don't care about.

Bound to be a winner. :roll:


Do you really have to be some dismissive? It's very tiresome.

Yes some of us think that socialising should be a key part of an MMO and we get excited at the idea of having Kul Tiras in the game (the place where the orc TFT campaign concluded) but yeah, how dare we ask for that. It's all about the "new players" and the mind numbingly easy progression. Those of us who have been with the series since Warcraft 2 (or even the first game) and bought WoW at launch don't matter anymore.

Be constructive or keep it to yourself.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby benebarba » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:46 pm

I actually wonder if those 3+ hour (wait+run) times to run dungeons is actually one of the things that helped prevent the burnout we now see... You simply couldn't pound through every dungeon til your eyes bled because there wasn't' enough time.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Lieris » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:51 pm

The 3 hour thing for a dungeon is gross hyperbole anyway. That was not at all my experience but I was a tank and got whispers asking me to tank all the time.

Besides the group typically didn't disband after just one dungeon, you usually did 2 or 3 and you talked to each other during the travel times. I thought it was nice!
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Darielle » Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:31 pm

Even as a person who played DPS specs that weren't Mages or whatever people insisted you needed for various dungeons, I'm pretty sure I spend more time waiting nowadays for queues than back in the day when going to the instances was a thing. And that was on Tanaris - a really really really really behind and low pop server.

Of course, being a tank or healer was even better.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Teranoid » Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:35 pm

The game is too far down the slope to go back to everything being more time consuming and ultimately actually resembling the textbook definition of an MMO.

We're now in the Xbox generation of "gimme gimme gimme or I quit".
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby halabar » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:07 pm

benebarba wrote:I actually wonder if those 3+ hour (wait+run) times to run dungeons is actually one of the things that helped prevent the burnout we now see... You simply couldn't pound through every dungeon til your eyes bled because there wasn't' enough time.


Fair point, but you also need to include the slower pace of content progression. You didn't feel like you needed to hit cap in 5 days and be raid geared in another 5. The game was slower not all that long ago.

But, you also can't put that genie back in the bottle either.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby halabar » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:13 pm

Lieris wrote:
halabar wrote:Sure... let's...

Eliminate casual content, and force socialization. No more random groups.

Make all dungeons take at least an hour to run, 3 is better.

Rehash old lore that new players don't care about.

Bound to be a winner. :roll:


Do you really have to be some dismissive? It's very tiresome.

Be constructive or keep it to yourself.


:D Warcraft 1 here, from the LAN party days.

And rose-colored glasses solve everything.. sure...

All you suggested was removing all the changes made to make the game more accessible to "modern" gamers. Don't think that will happen.

So, besides porchchairs and rocksalt, any real ideas that build on the current state of the game?

How about...

As I said for dailies, make it all weekly. Allow people to play to their own schedule.

Reward players for playing in known groups. (They are doing a bit of this with H Scenarios already, and are expanding with Flex).

What they need next is a way to build more socialization with non-raiders, perhaps something to do with the farms, or crafting, or events, or group questing.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Ruldar » Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:51 am

Casual players are the ones who pay the bills, and casual players are the ones benefiting from LFD/LFR. That particular change is never going anywhere.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby cdan » Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:57 am

The idea of co-operative farming appeals to me, halabar. If you group with another 2-3 players you should be able to increase yield and growing time. Or something.

I have alt-itis so I have my own mini-co-operative going, but having a yield increase or similar for working with others would be a good idea in my book.

Co-operative professions would be an idea too. Not just sending stuff from one person to the next to have profession-based additions made to the original item, but grouped chars acting in unison to create something a little better. 3-ingots for a pair of BS-ers with one each and one to roll on. Or something.
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