Simcraft Stat Priority Problem

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Simcraft Stat Priority Problem

Postby samsara » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:24 am

I just tried out simcraft for my tank (havn't used it for quite a long time) following thecks blog

The Result was: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/613 ... eport.html

Now i'm wondering a bit about this part:

tmi_yûko.PNG
tmi_yûko.PNG (24.14 KiB) Viewed 1766 times



Shouldn't there be something like "Hit > exp > haste ..... "

The general options i have used:

tmi_yuko_options.PNG
tmi_yuko_options.PNG (24.26 KiB) Viewed 1766 times


the scaling options:

tmi_yuko_scaling.PNG
tmi_yuko_scaling.PNG (18.79 KiB) Viewed 1766 times
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Re: Simcraft Stat Priority Problem

Postby samsara » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:44 am

havn't found the problem yet but could it be that the "^y" in my charname fucks up something when importing? just tried the same settings with other tankpaladins and the values looking more reasonable.
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Re: Simcraft Stat Priority Problem

Postby Schroom » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:01 am

I'll run your character once through simc on my PC just to be sure.

have you tried to sim again? maybe a one time bug on really bad rng?
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Re: Simcraft Stat Priority Problem

Postby Schroom » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:13 am

strange I used the same options as i use for my character (jsut to be sure we haven't overseen some bad options) and I get the same results as you do for your character.
although for my character it works perfectly: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/387 ... -2013.html

me guess only Theck could see where this bug hides.
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Re: Simcraft Stat Priority Problem

Postby samsara » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:47 pm

maybe it's gear-related, i had quite many problems this tier with rawr and chardev as they are missing quite a few item's. so, if this is the source of the itemstats maybe simc thinks i'm playing without some pieces of gear... but on the other hand it should be no difference for statprio if played naked or not.
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Re: Simcraft Stat Priority Problem

Postby theckhd » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:42 pm

Stat priority certainly does change with gear, but either way adding stamina should never increase your TMI, which is what your stat weights are suggesting. That said, I'm getting results that are very similar to what you are, even in my developer's build. I'll look into it and see if I can figure out what's causing the problem.
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Re: Simcraft Stat Priority Problem

Postby theckhd » Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:37 pm

When I run you against the T15N boss, I get results that look about correct:
Image

The LFR boss gives similar results, though your TMI is so low against that boss that it's hard to tell. But as soon as I flip it to T15H, your stat weights go nuts.

I'm going to do some more debugging to see what the problem is, because so far I have no idea. It shouldn't have anything to do with the character in your name, as I get the same results if I rename you "Yuko" and re-sim.
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Re: Simcraft Stat Priority Problem

Postby theckhd » Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:44 pm

... What the hell....

I replaced your glyphs with Shroom's Glyphs and the problem went away. So it's some sort of glyph-related bug, I guess?

Going to try and figure out which one is the problem, but holy hell what a weird bug.
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Re: Simcraft Stat Priority Problem

Postby theckhd » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:59 pm

So.... it's complicated. It looks like the stat weights are real, and they're a weird interaction between the T15 4-piece and Divine Purposeand your current stats.

Basically because of the 4-piece and Unbreakable Spirit, you're getting 25% uptime on Divine Protection (10 sec. duration, recast every ~40 sec). That means 25% of the time you're being rewarded (with more Holy Power) for taking extra damage.

It's not related to Unbreakable Spirit itself though - removing that drops you to 17% uptime, but you still get the funky stat weights.
Image

However, if you swap your Focused Shield glyph to Divine Protection, all of the sudden your stat weights switch back to what we'd expect:
Image

Similarly if we arbitrarily add 1000 stamina to your gear via the tabard slot:
Image

To see why, let's take a look at several of the stats that differ between the three situations, plus another two where I add 250 or 500 stam. Note that these aren't cumulative, they're all relative to the Base configuration.

Code: Select all
           DP uptime  SotR uptime  HP_T15_4pc  Base TMI  Stat Weights
Base        25.82%       86.50%      136.07     611.6    Funky   (Sta/Armor negative)
+250 stam   25.81%       86.54%      136.00     574.2    Funky   (Sta/Armor negative)
+500 stam   25.46%       83.22%      134.26     819.5    Normal  (Hit>Exp>Sta>Mast>Armor>Str>Haste)
+1k stam    25.08%       83.18%      134.24     713.2    Normal  (Hit>Exp>Sta>Mast>Armor>Str>Haste)
FS->DP      24.59%       74.50%      129.50     676.4    Normal? (Hit>Exp>Haste>Sta>Str>Mast>Armor)



The HP overflow is much lower in the FS->DP sim, but it's fairly similar in the other two so that's probably not a major factor.

I think what we're seeing here is that you're near a Stamina breakpoint, believe it or not. Adding 250 stamina improves your TMI without having a significant effect on DP uptime, SotR uptime, or the Holy Power income from 4T15. However if we bump that up to 500 stam, all of the sudden your T15 HP income drops by 2 holy power, your SotR uptime suffers by 3% as a result, and your TMI actually goes up!. Moving further to 1000 stamina starts to reduce your TMI again as it should, again.

Basically, what's happening is that you're crossing an HP threshold at which some type of attack is no longer doing enough damage to break the T15 4-piece Holy Power threshold, and thus reducing your HPG. Remember that the sim determines your scale factors by adding 1000 of each stat, so when it does this it sees your TMI go up and calculates the stat weight accordingly.

That explains why the FS->DP glyph change gives the same effect - it's reducing the damage you take during DP by 20% now, so it has an even larger effect on your T15 4-piece HP income. It also explains why you see a similar effect when adding armor (same basic idea - reducing damage intake relative to health and crossing the same threshold).

And finally, it also explains why the stat weights flip. Once you've crossed that threshold, your stat weights return to normal because adding more stamina improves your TMI again. It's only near that threshold where things get weird.

This highlights one of the issues I've always had with the T15 4-piece bonus. It can have strange negative interaction with other stats that improve your survivability. While dodge/parry/str. don't go negative, I'm willing to bet that the 4-piece is reducing their effectiveness (though that's tougher to test empirically).

That interaction isn't generally a problem when the effect is weak, like the T16 2-piece, which has the same problem, but probably isn't strong enough to exhibit this sort of influence. But the T16 4-piece effect isn't always weak - it becomes a very strong effect when you're near one of the stamina thresholds, where you go from generating 0 to 1, or 1 to 2 Holy Power from a given attack.

Anyway, I'm glad I got to the bottom of it, and this is fascinating stuff. It'll make a great blog post.

Unfortunately, that doesn't help your situation. But maybe this will. The GUI doesn't have a built-in option to change the amount of each stat it uses to calculate the stat weights (mental note: add this). However, if you add the line
Code: Select all
scale_delta_multiplier=0.2

in the simulate window (I put it right after your spec=protection declaration), it will use 0.2*1000=200 of each stat to calculate the scale factors. This is below your threshold crossover point, so you end up getting normal-ish stat weights (though the error is a little larger, probably because we're approaching the breakpoint).

The other option is to realize that you're very near the breakpoint and shouldn't be adding much more stamina. We know it's between 250 and 500 stamina above your current gear. If you want to find it more precisely, you can change the line containing your tabard to:

Code: Select all
tabard=renowned_guild_tabard,stats=350sta


And tweak the stamina value little by little until you get normal stat weights again. If you want to do this faster, you can skip the stat weight calculation and just look for a sharp increase in TMI, which should tell you that you've crossed the threshold. That way you know that you shouldn't add any more than that much stamina.

(By the way, testing with 350 sta gave me a TMI of 827.4 and normal stat weights, so your target range is somewhere between 250 and 350 stamina from your current setup.

Hope that was helpful....
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Re: Simcraft Stat Priority Problem

Postby Schroom » Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:04 am

WOW!

and this is fascinating


indeed!

I always knew why I disliked the 4piece more and more, the better the gear got. (I guess I would have liked having it only for hard hitters like DA HM and Ra-Den.) Bosses where I use DP rotational usually don't hit that hard that I would really need that plus HoPo anyway. And the amount of Bosses I use DP as a Cooldown is pretty low, and keeping it ready for THAT Hit would again be a waste of the 4 piece as the uptime on DP would be much lower than possible. All in all not that attractive and happy with near BiS Offset gear.
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Re: Simcraft Stat Priority Problem

Postby samsara » Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:43 am

thanks for this detailed explanation, i had to read it twice (not native english speaker XD) and will probably have to read it again to fully understand all factors.

I switched back to the 4 pc boni for raden lately when i saw incredible sotr uptimes and realiced that it's also usefull on other fights, i may not get out the same dmg as i did with my "omg full haste setup" but with 4 pc it feels a bit more releaxed (which is great in times where the temperature in my flat hits 35 degress during raidtimes XD). Maybe my playstyle differs a bit from schrooms as i nearly use dp on cd while actively tanking (except dark animus where i save it for the massive), and save Goak for those big stuff or just ask for an external (the good side when playing in 25 raids)

Anyway it states a bit that the t15 4 piece will be very strong in t16 as bosses will probably hit harder, so 15 hc 4 piece with t16 nonset will be the way to got until i know more and of course know the bosses better.
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Re: Simcraft Stat Priority Problem

Postby Promdates » Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:58 am

It's odd that he's getting those issues with high haste and 4p bonus, as I don't recall getting those issues to come up with mine.
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Re: Simcraft Stat Priority Problem

Postby Meloree » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:20 am

It's worth noting, in case this wasn't clear: "Stamina breakpoints" aren't real. Or at least, they're not sharp enough breakpoints to ever make the marginal value of stamina postive with respect to TMI. They're an artifact of a couple of causes that have been identified so far:

1) Bosses in the sim currently don't have a hit range, they hit for a static value. This makes any breakpoint behaviour much sharper than it should be.
2) The APL has a stamina conditional in it to implement the SH1 queue. For bosses which are trivial (IE, which can't trigger the conditional), the sim doesn't use the SH1 queue anymore. This creates a breakpoint.
3) 4t15 has breakpoint behaviour on generating HP. Also, the APL doesn't take into account 4T15 and the associated desire to run less of an HP bank when DP is up, such that it can compound with the stamina breakpoint above, wasting additional HP.

In both cases, the breakpoints only show up when simming trivial bosses (IE, at very low TMI values).
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