[5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

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[5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Alrinea » Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:58 pm

Protection and Retribution: Sacred Shield is 30% less effective.

guess it was just a question of time before it got nerfed. will probably still be the best talent in that tier by far, but less insane now - escpecially because the amount of vengeance we get is getting nerfed.

also, a most curious other change:
Trinket, enchant, set bonus, and legendary meta-gem effects whose triggered effect benefits from haste no longer also have their chance to trigger the benefit from haste. Activation chances for those effects have been adjusted to compensate.

this is a most curious wording, as pretty much every proc that isnt flat damage or haste benefits from haste. will probably make dps trinkets significantly worse for us (depending on the amount they compensated the proc by) as we are going for 50% haste.

all in all a lot of hate for prot pallys in 5.4 :(
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Treck » Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:27 pm

Alrinea wrote:all in all a lot of hate for prot pallys in 5.4 :(

Even with all of this (none are gamebreaking) protpallys will likely still be the best tanks, so I dont get all the crying.
We need finetuning, its just not a fun way to get balanced by nerfs, but would it be so much better having all the other tanks getting insane buffs to bring them in line?
Likely not cause people would just assume that all other tanks would become OP and pallys left behind...
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Alrinea » Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:02 pm

i'm mostly surprised they are doing tuning on this magnitude on the last content patch of the expansion. would have asumed a talent that needs a 30% nerf (and was thus about 50% too strong before) would have gotten a nudge earlier. also: they are buffing at least warriors significantly in 5.4, so that is happening aswell. not saying they/we didnt need it. also this is nerf #8 or sth for us in 5.4, so it kind of feels like they are just nerfing everything.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Worldie » Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:15 pm

Wild hint: if it's taking 8 (and maybe more) nerfs, doesn't it cross your mind that Prot Paladins *might* be far ahead over other tanking classes (bar maybe monks who are getting nerfs / adjustments as well)?
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Slootbag » Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:11 pm

Alrinea wrote:will probably still be the best talent in that tier by far, but less insane now - escpecially because the amount of vengeance we get is getting nerfed


I wouldn't jump to these conclusions right away. There's other factors to consider. Alongside the SS nerf, was a 40% EF buff, one that scales with not only Haste much like SS but also with Mastery (BoG). It's made further attractive by our T16 4P if we opt to use it. The major unattraction to EF is the nature of the ability, a heal is always less preferable over an absorb for a tank, usually. But if the deal is sweetened enough, EF is a definite contender, so let's not rule it out just yet.

Treck wrote:Even with all of this (none are gamebreaking) protpallys will likely still be the best tanks, so I dont get all the crying.
We need finetuning, its just not a fun way to get balanced by nerfs, but would it be so much better having all the other tanks getting insane buffs to bring them in line?
Likely not cause people would just assume that all other tanks would become OP and pallys left behind...


I mostly agree, we just aren't going to be leaps and bounds beyond any tank, we will be more in line with BM and Warr now (Wars will be very strong next tier). But as an overall package deal, Paladins will still bring the most.
But other tanks are getting buffed in order to bring them in line (DK/Warr/Druid), while others are getting nerfed (BrM/Pal), so it is a 2-way street.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Worldie » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:47 pm

Remember also the nerf to battle healer / sacred shields are there also because of Blizzard purpose on talents and glyph: make them situational.
If a talent / glyph becomes mandatory for a certain spec in all situations, they have always either baselined it or nerfed / buffed other options.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Zothor » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:54 am

Worldie wrote:Remember also the nerf to battle healer / sacred shields are there also because of Blizzard purpose on talents and glyph: make them situational.
If a talent / glyph becomes mandatory for a certain spec in all situations, they have always either baselined it or nerfed / buffed other options.


Sure, but in an earlier build of 5.4 they were considering base lining it for us because it's such an integral part of our survivalbility mechanic right now. I'll reserve judgement on how much this sucks until we have updated sims, but I will say that playing without it (and with EF) would feel very, very wrong at this point in the xpack. I'd just have an empty key bind... That bubble has felt like my new Holy Shield.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Slootbag » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:13 am

Zothor wrote:I'll reserve judgement on how much this sucks until we have updated sims, but I will say that playing without it (and with EF) would feel very, very wrong at this point in the xpack. I'd just have an empty key bind... That bubble has felt like my new Holy Shield.



I agree, but I think finally swapping to EF if viable could be fun, same idea just keep up a 30s buff basically. Not sure if you've checked how hard the HoTs tick for on PTR (given I don't think the 40% even MADE it in yet, because the SS nerf hasn't), but it's fairly soothing even if it hasn't yet :P
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Diceone » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:33 pm

I totally agree with treckie on this one. The nerfs aren't going to stop us from being the best tanks around, that's a mechanical thing. It will make us take a bit more. The only thing this has done is get me to make sure I have my warrior ready to go for SoO.

We're still not going to use anything but SS imo.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Kerriodos » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:54 pm

Keep in mind that the 40% Eternal Flame buff is pretty significant, since healing done by EF is doubled when you cast it on yourself. It's a pretty significant amount of self healing, and when combined with losing nearly 1/3 of your Sacred Shield.... Of course, there are also mechanical differences that we'll have to consider like healing v. absorbs, overhealing, and what not, but I wouldn't write EF off by any means. Though, if it ends up being a landslide victory, then really we're just swapping one absolutely mandatory talent for another, at which point I sort of wonder why they bothered.

Still, we're hardly going to be hamstrung by these changes. I know the WoW community in general has a habit of claiming the sky is falling, but I really don't think we have to be worried about suddenly being unviable--though I may have to re-evaluate how much stamina I'm avoiding it we're suddenly using a HoT instead of an absorb.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Dael » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:25 pm

Though SS has been nerfed, quite justifiably I might add, and battle healer changed, I doubt that paladins will really be shaken from the top tier of tanks for SoO. Their raid utility and survivability will be, if different, perhaps as good as ever.

The new Unbreakable Spirit will give us much more reliable reduction for (particularly magical) damage spikes and I'm sure that I'm not the only one who might consider the t15 4 set to be fairly broken (add in the cooldown reduction trinket, 24 second cd on DP anyone?) perhaps even for some heroic encounters.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Fetzie » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:03 pm

Yeah, the holy power the T15 4p grants is ridiculous. Although I would likely upgrade to T16 if you don't have all four pieces on heroic 2/2 upgraded simply due to the item level increase from 522 to 550.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby daishan » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:46 pm

I've just finished getting T15 4p double upgraded.
Though I find it hard to believe Blizz will leave it how it is for long after the patch, they almost always nerf old tier if it looks like players will favour it over new tier.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Schroom » Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:54 pm

@Slootbag,

my guildmaster watched your stream the other day and said that you are now definitely on the side of EF, and even had the math and excellsheets to prove it's supremacy. Although, I don't believe it really, because as you said yourself:

a heal is always less preferable over an absorb for a tank


(also considering overheal, all the mastery and haste in the world is useless if the HoT goes into almost 100% overheal, and as SoI proccs are at 70-80% overheal in my logs I really can't see EF overtaking SS)

I definitely want to know more about this! :)

please?
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Xfighter » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:29 am

The gist of sloots explanation on EF vs SS is:
-EF ticks twice per SS absorb, and for 2-3 times as much as an SS absorb does.
-EF comes out ahead furthermore if you go the route of Haste to cap > mastery as your stat priorities, as EF benefits from the mastery.
-EF outperforms SS when you're not at 90-95%+ the whole fight, but SS wins if you're able to stay at nearly full hp the whole time. (A fight like Malkorok? I think it is still has SS superior, if I remember from Sloot's 25N stream correctly)


Either way, he showed the values for each 25k veng or something, and in most cases EFs healing was 3x that of what an SS absorb would have been due to 2 ticks vs 1, and bastion + 100% increase on yourself.



Sloot might be able to explain it a bit nicer once he checks the thread again.



Edit: http://www.twitch.tv/slootbag/b/446666839

Starts at 4h 10min in.
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