[5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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[5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Alrinea » Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:58 pm

Protection and Retribution: Sacred Shield is 30% less effective.

guess it was just a question of time before it got nerfed. will probably still be the best talent in that tier by far, but less insane now - escpecially because the amount of vengeance we get is getting nerfed.

also, a most curious other change:
Trinket, enchant, set bonus, and legendary meta-gem effects whose triggered effect benefits from haste no longer also have their chance to trigger the benefit from haste. Activation chances for those effects have been adjusted to compensate.

this is a most curious wording, as pretty much every proc that isnt flat damage or haste benefits from haste. will probably make dps trinkets significantly worse for us (depending on the amount they compensated the proc by) as we are going for 50% haste.

all in all a lot of hate for prot pallys in 5.4 :(
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Treck » Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:27 pm

Alrinea wrote:all in all a lot of hate for prot pallys in 5.4 :(

Even with all of this (none are gamebreaking) protpallys will likely still be the best tanks, so I dont get all the crying.
We need finetuning, its just not a fun way to get balanced by nerfs, but would it be so much better having all the other tanks getting insane buffs to bring them in line?
Likely not cause people would just assume that all other tanks would become OP and pallys left behind...
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Alrinea » Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:02 pm

i'm mostly surprised they are doing tuning on this magnitude on the last content patch of the expansion. would have asumed a talent that needs a 30% nerf (and was thus about 50% too strong before) would have gotten a nudge earlier. also: they are buffing at least warriors significantly in 5.4, so that is happening aswell. not saying they/we didnt need it. also this is nerf #8 or sth for us in 5.4, so it kind of feels like they are just nerfing everything.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Worldie » Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:15 pm

Wild hint: if it's taking 8 (and maybe more) nerfs, doesn't it cross your mind that Prot Paladins *might* be far ahead over other tanking classes (bar maybe monks who are getting nerfs / adjustments as well)?
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Slootbag » Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:11 pm

Alrinea wrote:will probably still be the best talent in that tier by far, but less insane now - escpecially because the amount of vengeance we get is getting nerfed


I wouldn't jump to these conclusions right away. There's other factors to consider. Alongside the SS nerf, was a 40% EF buff, one that scales with not only Haste much like SS but also with Mastery (BoG). It's made further attractive by our T16 4P if we opt to use it. The major unattraction to EF is the nature of the ability, a heal is always less preferable over an absorb for a tank, usually. But if the deal is sweetened enough, EF is a definite contender, so let's not rule it out just yet.

Treck wrote:Even with all of this (none are gamebreaking) protpallys will likely still be the best tanks, so I dont get all the crying.
We need finetuning, its just not a fun way to get balanced by nerfs, but would it be so much better having all the other tanks getting insane buffs to bring them in line?
Likely not cause people would just assume that all other tanks would become OP and pallys left behind...


I mostly agree, we just aren't going to be leaps and bounds beyond any tank, we will be more in line with BM and Warr now (Wars will be very strong next tier). But as an overall package deal, Paladins will still bring the most.
But other tanks are getting buffed in order to bring them in line (DK/Warr/Druid), while others are getting nerfed (BrM/Pal), so it is a 2-way street.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Worldie » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:47 pm

Remember also the nerf to battle healer / sacred shields are there also because of Blizzard purpose on talents and glyph: make them situational.
If a talent / glyph becomes mandatory for a certain spec in all situations, they have always either baselined it or nerfed / buffed other options.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Zothor » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:54 am

Worldie wrote:Remember also the nerf to battle healer / sacred shields are there also because of Blizzard purpose on talents and glyph: make them situational.
If a talent / glyph becomes mandatory for a certain spec in all situations, they have always either baselined it or nerfed / buffed other options.


Sure, but in an earlier build of 5.4 they were considering base lining it for us because it's such an integral part of our survivalbility mechanic right now. I'll reserve judgement on how much this sucks until we have updated sims, but I will say that playing without it (and with EF) would feel very, very wrong at this point in the xpack. I'd just have an empty key bind... That bubble has felt like my new Holy Shield.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Slootbag » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:13 am

Zothor wrote:I'll reserve judgement on how much this sucks until we have updated sims, but I will say that playing without it (and with EF) would feel very, very wrong at this point in the xpack. I'd just have an empty key bind... That bubble has felt like my new Holy Shield.



I agree, but I think finally swapping to EF if viable could be fun, same idea just keep up a 30s buff basically. Not sure if you've checked how hard the HoTs tick for on PTR (given I don't think the 40% even MADE it in yet, because the SS nerf hasn't), but it's fairly soothing even if it hasn't yet :P
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Diceone » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:33 pm

I totally agree with treckie on this one. The nerfs aren't going to stop us from being the best tanks around, that's a mechanical thing. It will make us take a bit more. The only thing this has done is get me to make sure I have my warrior ready to go for SoO.

We're still not going to use anything but SS imo.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Kerriodos » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:54 pm

Keep in mind that the 40% Eternal Flame buff is pretty significant, since healing done by EF is doubled when you cast it on yourself. It's a pretty significant amount of self healing, and when combined with losing nearly 1/3 of your Sacred Shield.... Of course, there are also mechanical differences that we'll have to consider like healing v. absorbs, overhealing, and what not, but I wouldn't write EF off by any means. Though, if it ends up being a landslide victory, then really we're just swapping one absolutely mandatory talent for another, at which point I sort of wonder why they bothered.

Still, we're hardly going to be hamstrung by these changes. I know the WoW community in general has a habit of claiming the sky is falling, but I really don't think we have to be worried about suddenly being unviable--though I may have to re-evaluate how much stamina I'm avoiding it we're suddenly using a HoT instead of an absorb.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Dael » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:25 pm

Though SS has been nerfed, quite justifiably I might add, and battle healer changed, I doubt that paladins will really be shaken from the top tier of tanks for SoO. Their raid utility and survivability will be, if different, perhaps as good as ever.

The new Unbreakable Spirit will give us much more reliable reduction for (particularly magical) damage spikes and I'm sure that I'm not the only one who might consider the t15 4 set to be fairly broken (add in the cooldown reduction trinket, 24 second cd on DP anyone?) perhaps even for some heroic encounters.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Fetzie » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:03 pm

Yeah, the holy power the T15 4p grants is ridiculous. Although I would likely upgrade to T16 if you don't have all four pieces on heroic 2/2 upgraded simply due to the item level increase from 522 to 550.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby daishan » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:46 pm

I've just finished getting T15 4p double upgraded.
Though I find it hard to believe Blizz will leave it how it is for long after the patch, they almost always nerf old tier if it looks like players will favour it over new tier.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Schroom » Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:54 pm

@Slootbag,

my guildmaster watched your stream the other day and said that you are now definitely on the side of EF, and even had the math and excellsheets to prove it's supremacy. Although, I don't believe it really, because as you said yourself:

a heal is always less preferable over an absorb for a tank


(also considering overheal, all the mastery and haste in the world is useless if the HoT goes into almost 100% overheal, and as SoI proccs are at 70-80% overheal in my logs I really can't see EF overtaking SS)

I definitely want to know more about this! :)

please?
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Xfighter » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:29 am

The gist of sloots explanation on EF vs SS is:
-EF ticks twice per SS absorb, and for 2-3 times as much as an SS absorb does.
-EF comes out ahead furthermore if you go the route of Haste to cap > mastery as your stat priorities, as EF benefits from the mastery.
-EF outperforms SS when you're not at 90-95%+ the whole fight, but SS wins if you're able to stay at nearly full hp the whole time. (A fight like Malkorok? I think it is still has SS superior, if I remember from Sloot's 25N stream correctly)


Either way, he showed the values for each 25k veng or something, and in most cases EFs healing was 3x that of what an SS absorb would have been due to 2 ticks vs 1, and bastion + 100% increase on yourself.



Sloot might be able to explain it a bit nicer once he checks the thread again.



Edit: http://www.twitch.tv/slootbag/b/446666839

Starts at 4h 10min in.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Schroom » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:59 am

my arguements against it are:

EF does not Prevent damage. EF will always push up your TMI!
you need HoPo for EF. which costs SoTR uptime
you use your BoG stacks. which makes you lose an a Oh-$hit! button.
you aren't as free to use a WoG on your ratemembers to save someones live. or help heal the raid for a moment when your healers are busy.

as I said. I see SoI going into 70-80% overheal. I can't see how another HoT like EF will do more good than harm here.

even if the raw healing is bigger (which it sure is). But that is just NOT an argument. It's like if a healers says: guys I want to play World rank 1 on WoL please. Everybody stand in the fire now! so i don't produce overhealing....

there is an old saying between healers. If you play world rank 1 as a healer. it is not that you are the best in the world. But your raid is probably one of the worst.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby daishan » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:48 am

Schroom wrote:my arguements against it are:

EF does not Prevent damage. EF will always push up your TMI!
you need HoPo for EF. which costs SoTR uptime
you use your BoG stacks. which makes you lose an a Oh-$hit! button.
you aren't as free to use a WoG on your ratemembers to save someones live. or help heal the raid for a moment when your healers are busy.

as I said. I see SoI going into 70-80% overheal. I can't see how another HoT like EF will do more good than harm here.

even if the raw healing is bigger (which it sure is). But that is just NOT an argument. It's like if a healers says: guys I want to play World rank 1 on WoL please. Everybody stand in the fire now! so i don't produce overhealing....

there is an old saying between healers. If you play world rank 1 as a healer. it is not that you are the best in the world. But your raid is probably one of the worst.


I'm very undecided about EF or SS, here's how I see some of the points you brought up:-

TMI. I haven't played with EF on SimC yet (not even sure if all of the buffs/nerfs are implemented yet) but if EF ticks are sufficiently strong and fast enough enough I can see EF reducing TMI.

SotR uptime. Once we have T16 4P EF won't cost us SotR uptime, ofc it's debatable how soon we'll want T16 tier assuming T15 4P isn't nerfed.

BoG stacks. Completely agree with this, probably EF's biggest draw back imo.

Over heal. SoI over heals a lot but the same argument that was used for modelling SoI as zero over heal can be used for EF. That is when we're in danger of dieing very little of any HoT will go to over heal. Will be fight dependent ofc, fights with steady tank dmg like hard hitting DoTs ect will favour EF somewhat.

Personally I'll probably wait for T16 4P before I regularly use EF, can't say I really like maintenance buffs.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Schroom » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:57 am

the one thing is, I don't know If I really want 4p.

2 piece. sure. I take the Helmet and the gloves which have haste on them and give a minimal stat loss to the nonset counterparts. but a nice 2 piece bonus.

4 piece imo will only be interesting If I can keep my 50% haste with these 2 nonhaste items. And this would mean I would lose stamina (As i would need to gem more haste to keep 50% haste) so

Once we have T16 4P EF won't cost us SotR uptime
is not quite correct. you only won't lose SoTR uptime if you stay at the same haste level, but you'll lose stamina (or mastery depending on your post 50% haste choice).

so overall, I don't see myself using the 4 piece except very late when SoO HM is on farm anyhow. As I would pass on the 3rd and 4rd setpiece anyhow in favor of locks and priests.

That is when we're in danger of dieing very little of any HoT will go to over heal


yes, but this is a situation that should not happen in the first place. and that is exactly what SS helps to do. to prevent ever getting into danger of dieing! EF does not prevents damage. it only works well when the spike, you desperately try to prevent. As a tank this just bugs me...

also, if one ever gets into danger of dieing, we have so many tools to use in this case.

we got WoG with BoG stacks (which we won't have with EF). We have LoH, we have AD to get our healers a little time if everything else fails. we got healthstones, and HP-pots, which help a lot! Hell I even use first aid and FoL in some situations. Also if a tank is in danger of dieing we got 9 other players (or 24) who notice this an know exactly that the death of a tank, in most cases, means a wipe. you got your healers that use their cooldowns in this case, we got external cooldowns. all in all there is soooo much we can use, if we ever get into this situation.

and if this ever happens, it is a situation I have never been for long, by that I mean not even for the duration of a swingtimer before any of those above things happend and turned me back to being topped off.

and this is what we see when looking at logs. 60-70% overheal of SoI.

If this is the amount I have with SoI EF will never be fully efficient.

also, I did a lot of raidtesting on PTR and to be honest even with the scaling I had a hard time trying to die when a wipe was called.

our flex raid kill of Galakras yesterday was even so foul in fact the at 10% I and my warrior tankpartner downed it solo because even as it was called a wipe, we could not die, so we killed it instead.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Slootbag » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:04 am

Schroom wrote:my arguements against it are:

EF does not Prevent damage. EF will always push up your TMI!
you need HoPo for EF. which costs SoTR uptime
you use your BoG stacks. which makes you lose an a Oh-$hit! button.
you aren't as free to use a WoG on your ratemembers to save someones live. or help heal the raid for a moment when your healers are busy.

as I said. I see SoI going into 70-80% overheal. I can't see how another HoT like EF will do more good than harm here.

even if the raw healing is bigger (which it sure is). But that is just NOT an argument. It's like if a healers says: guys I want to play World rank 1 on WoL please. Everybody stand in the fire now! so i don't produce overhealing....

there is an old saying between healers. If you play world rank 1 as a healer. it is not that you are the best in the world. But your raid is probably one of the worst.



I had initial reservations against EF too, but I've been testing around with it quite a lot lately, and with 4PT16, it's quite potent.

TMI, is just what it is ultimately, a model. Albeit a very powerful one, nothing can ever replicate an actual raiding environment. While I always fancy Theck's work, to me it is to be used as a great guide, not as the Holy Paladin Bible of there being only 1 correct answer (unless there's massive disparity), I'm hoping he agrees with me on that.
I'll try to give my viewpoint on your counterarguments of EF for the others too, see if that stirs a bit of discussion.

You need 0 HoPo for EF with 4PT16 as I said, which makes the set all the more attractive (among other, possibly broken, reasons). Did I mentioned the free EF/WoG cast also has a chance to produce DP? The argument for EF is indeed made weaker without the 4PT16, but is not null.

The BoG stacks was initially something I was concerned about too with the fishing argument for 3 BoG 4PT16. But the actual use for EF isn't nearly as invasive for BoG stacks as would a fishing game be. With Haste levels where they will be (and frankly already are), and DP on top of it (since the 4PT16 strengthens DP over HA further), you get BoG in no time it seems now within that 30s window between EF reapplications. Every fight I tested it on I was never in a concern of "Ah crap, I really needed a BoG heal, don't have it, and will now die because of it". Also not to mention that it is quite likely that an EF just ticked or is about to tick to make that further less likely, don't forget you still have the EF cast at your disposal, and regardless of BoG or not, heals for quite a bit at appropriate vengeance levels.

You are as free to use EF as you would WoG on someone in the raid to help them heal.

The facts are in the information, and there is not necessarily a clear winner for SS or EF (imo). Everyone's job is to take the given information and use it skillfully to assess what would be best for their play style etc. But EF is certainly a contending choice now, and that tier can't just be ignored anymore by crowning SS the clear winner.
I understand there's a level of comfort and skepticism, after we've been using SS for the entire expansion, and I love my SS too, but I don't think that's a just reason to blind ourselves to potential advantages in other areas.

Now let's also be fair and mention some perks for EF over SS, since we spent everything defending why EF isn't better for now.
-EF scales with Mastery and Haste, and we need a new stat after reachable Haste cap (Stam is another option), SS does not scale with anything but haste for secondary stats.

-EF benefits from crit as each individual HoT has its own chance to crit, and makes it so that we can in fact benefit from all 3 stats on the amp trinket.

-EF costs nothing with 4PT16 and can proc DP if you use DP.

-Each EF ticks for ~1.5 to 2.5 time of a bigger heal than SS, and ticks twice as often. The amount of EF healing per SS absorb is in the range of 3.1-4 times. Just as an example (and keeping the proc numbers rounded for simplicity). At 250k vengeance (typical 25 man vengeance, give or take a bit with the new Vengeance nerfs but harder hitting bosses), we get a 102k SS absorb every 4 seconds, or we can get a 164k EF tick every 2 seconds, which can also crit. Now I always say, and very much agree with, absorbs are always better than reactive heals after the damage has been taken. But this idea needs to be analyzed deeper, primarily with health pools, of which we will have big ones since we have a fairly high Stam multiplier (25%), and 2 of our 5 viable trinkets this tier are stam based, with one being a general BiS contender (keyword being general). If you have a small health pool, and are often spiking for 90% of your health, then an absorb in this situation is far more beneficial than a tick heal, because you are very much at risk of dying, and the visual spike causes all kinds of problems with healing/smoothing. However as your health pool grows, so do according spikes in health. What was a 90% spike before turns into a 30% (exaggerated numbers) spike instead, and to me tick healing here starts to become stronger than absorbs in raw numbers, as there is also no visual emergency of you dying. I'm aware it's also how often we overheal with it etc, and that will vary fight to fight. But for what it's worth, any good player needs to analyze the current tier on a boss by boss basis, rather than make an sweeping generalizations about SS vs EF. It make very well be, that EF is better for some, and SS for others. It depends on a lot of factors.
The aforementioned EF numbers are for Mastery levels around 13-14%, something that will increase with the coming tier.
EF indeed doesn't prevent damage, but let's consider a very simple example here barring outside support. A boss melees for 350k every 2 seconds. Based on the above numbers.
With SS: Swing 1 gets reduced to 248k, and Swing 2 hits for the full 350k
With EF: Swing 1 hits for 350k and you heal for 164k (so net 186k damage), Swing 2 is the exact same, since EF will tick every 2s.
even if the raw healing is bigger (which it sure is). But that is just NOT an argument.

I disagree, in fact, it is a very good argument considering other mandatory factors. Not just size, but frequency too. If SS prevented me from ever going below 90% health like was earlier suggested, then sure SS all the way. But that's not the World (of Warcraft) we live in anymore. 102k absorb every 4s is frankly pretty puny considering some of the things waiting in SoOl, and frankly I want the highest self output possible because there's a lot of fights/situations in SoO with a constant and frequent damage intake, not to mention magic damage. We can also just peek at each boss.
Immerseus - heroic has dots/your bound to eat void zones sometimes too, but relatively tame overall.
Protectors - Constant damage if you tank Rook/caster chick, same with He due to poisons and fast swings. Transitions are packed with extra damage from multiple sources (aside He's).
Norushen - Pulsing AoE the whole fight, bolts to intercept, adds pulsing, pools to soak
Sha - A bit more tame but will ramp up in aoe as the fight drags and pride increases
Galakras - Multiple mobs constantly hitting you, often.
Juggernaut - Heavy fire DoT, 2nd phase AoE pulses, lines if you get it.
Shaman - a mess of magic and physical swings, often
Nazgrim - a bit more tame, generally just melees are dangerous with sunder
Malkorok - Constant healing for shield needed, no realistic cap on it when you are tanking him
Spoils - adds constantly hitting you frequently
Thok - breaths/aoe/dots ahoy on the tanks
Blackfuse - fire/lasers/aoe and hard hitting melee
Paragons - everything happens here, magic, double melee mobs hitting you often. too many sources of damage to list
Garrosh - adds/dot/aoe pulses
Again if you have the appropriate health pool (which we will even default by gear ilvl increase) to take all of this abuse, and there will be a lot of it frequently, I personally opt for the reasonably higher personal HPS throughput. I don't think you'll be seeing nearly as much overhealing as you think. From my testing I was having 40% range and never higher than 60%, or lower than 20%. And keep in mind, a lot of it often was from the initial heal just reapplying EF every 30s, not the HoT component.

-EF has more effective off healing for the raid than WoG, as you can also use it to blanket members, which helps with high vengeance.

-EF frees up a GCD every ~30s.

It is also worth mentioning as a side note. There is currently a build for 4PT16 involving Harsh Words which frankly is overpowered and is likely to get nerfed. If however it goes live, then the argument for EF becomes moot, as Harsh Words does not function with EF.
Last edited by Slootbag on Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Jackinthegreen » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:10 pm

EF does indeed scale with crit, haste, and mastery. Did you mean to say SS scales only with haste and not mastery, though? Since our mastery doesn't affect SS, but haste does affect it.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby marsbubble » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:33 pm

I know its far from conclusive, but does this mean haste is still going to be the strongest build going into 5.4? I've been holding off on gearing it because of the proposed changes, but I'd like to start gearing up my pally for main raid tanking asap.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby daishan » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:07 pm

Control/Haste build will stay the strongest in 5.4 regardless of talent choices.

Hit 7.5% > Exp 15% > Haste to 50% > Mast > Dodge=Parry

The level you raid at will mostly decide whether you prio Stam above or just below Haste.
If you're tanking a lot of mobs avoidance may move ahead of Mastery.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Schroom » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:16 pm

I don't know where this misconseption of haste not being viable anymore comes from. I read a lot of people whining about it (I don't mean you mars). sanctity of battle did not get nerfed. As long as that is, haste stays very strong. (at least until 50% where other stats start to catch up and more haste could mess up our roation)

thanks Slootbag for this very informative answer. I see where you're going with it speaking of huge lifepools.

I also aggre that it is always encounter dependant. it has been the same with every other talent. also it is dependant on group setup. we mainly heal with druid/shaman/paly. or druid/shaman/monk which makes it pretty HoT heavy already in the first place. also with tanks wearing the same gear in 10 man and 25 man, but bosses hitting weaker in 10 man this also has to be considered.

As I stated in 10 man I really never feel in danger of dying. Not on live, not on ptr. Even 90% spikes (except for some special attacks) are very rare at my current gear level.

The DP argument is pretty interesting tho.

so what I conclude is basically what I knew already but have yet to encounter. but I'll keep it in mind as option should I find it an option during progression.

btw my SS ticks are < 4 secs with 50% haste allready. (considering SoI and all buffs)

fairly, comparing real world, my healer made the point today while discussing the topic.

"EF could be stronger when it is less then 50% overheal, to be fair this has never happened (to us) in the past or on ptr, so almost never"

the general misconseption was that I've been told that you meant EF would be always > SS which, I guess you agree. Is not true but has to be judged on situation.

I would very much like to see Theck's opinion on the topic, because, as you said yourself Theck's work is great but no holy Bible (and I agree), but, no offense, neither is yours :) and after all. Discussion and exchange of facts and discoveries is why where here after all, isn't it?
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Slootbag » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:33 pm

Jackinthegreen wrote:EF does indeed scale with crit, haste, and mastery. Did you mean to say SS scales only with haste and not mastery, though? Since our mastery doesn't affect SS, but haste does affect it.


Aye I meant haste for SS, fixed, thanks!

marsbubble wrote:I know its far from conclusive, but does this mean haste is still going to be the strongest build going into 5.4? I've been holding off on gearing it because of the proposed changes, but I'd like to start gearing up my pally for main raid tanking asap.


What Schroom said above, not sure where this Haste scare is coming from. Haste is still "king" for 5.4 for control builds. I think people got scared of the GC change too much (which ironically this tier will prove to be a buff in many encounters).
Either way, stick with Haste much like has been said. After that Mastery or Stam stacking. The more advanced answer is Mastery or Stam depending on the fight at hand.

Schroom wrote:I also aggre that it is always encounter dependant. it has been the same with every other talent. also it is dependant on group setup. we mainly heal with druid/shaman/paly. or druid/shaman/monk which makes it pretty HoT heavy already in the first place. also with tanks wearing the same gear in 10 man and 25 man, but bosses hitting weaker in 10 man this also has to be considered.

As I stated in 10 man I really never feel in danger of dying. Not on live, not on ptr. Even 90% spikes (except for some special attacks) are very rare at my current gear level.


Yeah the story changes in 10 man, because the damage intake is noticeably smaller. So in the whole "health pool" example that I gave, it's easier to simulate a larger health pool because the bosses hit that much weaker, which would indeed drive a stronger case for SS on some encounters, again depending on the relative damage intake.

Schroom wrote:btw my SS ticks are < 4 secs with 50% haste allready. (considering SoI and all buffs)


Right, I rounded up the SS ticks to 4s for ease of just making a point. They are indeed below 4s for many people now, but keep in mind EF ticks scale with Haste accordingly too, at the same rate as SS I believe. So if your SS absorb tick timer is let's say 4s then EF tick is 2s. Get more Haste and that number may become 3.8s for SS, but it also becomes 1.9s for EF tick.

Schroom wrote:"EF could be stronger when it is less then 50% overheal, to be fair this has never happened (to us) in the past or on ptr, so almost never"


Numbers are numbers, and since EF is reactive healing you can very well one pull get 80% overhealing, and the next pull get 10% overhealing. It depends on the damage intake, if it is frequent and constant, that EF overhealing will go down, as there is constantly damage to heal, again, probably less so in 10 man.

Schroom wrote:but, no offense, neither is yours :) and after all. Discussion and exchange of facts and discoveries is why where here after all, isn't it?


Never said mine was :) I am (for better or worse) no dictator, and enjoy buzzing with the community to bounce ideas etc very much. Anyone who watches my stream knows I like to be part of the community. I don't call my choices the only right way to do things or anything of the sort, and never will. Many choices are viable, I like to explain mine and explain facts on mine and other possibilities and see what others think. Whether or not they accept it or reject is totally their choice based on playstyle and fun. This is a game after all :P
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf

Postby Xfighter » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:50 pm

Overall I feel like the EF change may work out to be pretty sizeable in 10-mans, at least under my situation raid-comp wise. For every single heroic progression boss so far this tier (a decent bit slower than some of you though), sitting at 11/13 with sub 3% wipes on Lei shen with 2 healers on every boss, except for our first ever Qon kill. We then dropped to 2 on every subsequent kill on Qon as well.


On most bosses, with SS+SoI, I find that I hardly need actual constant healing from the healers in the average case. Essentially Lifebloom+Rejuv or a shaman ES/Riptide accounts for most of the external healing on me already. So being able to further increase that amount of self healing allowing healers to either help more with DPS on the boss or focus on the other tank & raid, would seem more beneficial overall. The whole EF thing could work out to be quite a bit less overhealing, if you're able to more or less tell the healers they don't need to watch you as much. In Schrooms case, I can see how rolling 3 healers typically would result in SS being superior, typically.

The case could be made though, that if you are capable of being more self-sustaining in the long term, being able to drop that 3rd healer completely in favor of another DPS may work better for the raid overall.




In your example above about never finding yourself in a troublesome spot, and when you do having the BoG-WoG/all the available CDs at the ready, you could raise several counter points against that concept. From my personal experience, throughout the last few years and more so now with great state tanks are in - the majority of my tank deaths are either to a mistimed CD, messing up AM, or healers are forced to move for a longer period of time/are catching up on some raid damage, and the tank dies due to a lapse in direct tank healing for 4-6+ sec or so.

The majority of the "tank killers" these days are telegraphed extremely well and are more often than not on a pretty rigid timing structure. These large spikes in damage can typically be accounted for, and the proper mechanics (personal or external) are used to counter them safely. The rest of the time, what will kill the tank is some form of DoT, or breath, or melee+dot+melee, etc. Essentially a combination of damage sources that add up to a fatal amount in a specific window of time, very rarely is it a special attack alone that kills you.


Thus even though you aren't directly reducing parts of that fatal damage by hoping to prevent a melee+dot+melee+dot+melee (or whatever) with a bit of absorbs, you are still effectively mitigating each source of damage by a larger amount than an absorb would have prevented. And then since tank deaths that aren't CD-misses generally occur over a set period of time (2,4,6 etc secs), you increase that threshold of what constitutes as fatal damage more than an absorb or two would in that same time period.





Again like most are saying, it will be down to a per-fight basis, but I personally feel EF will be stronger on a good chunk of them due to it being able to mitigate some of the magnitude of whatever string of damage ends up in a tank death in normal cases other than preventing a small chunk of a burst ability that's generally predictable. And even then, the case could be made if the death was due to not being 100% health as BigBadBossAbility lands, that even if SS did absorb some of that damage, EF would have further safeguarded you against that hit being fatal or not (generally).


Just my thoughts on the topic, and I realize some of it is probably not explained as eloquently as it could be ^_^.
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