LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:26 am

Darielle wrote:I think you're crossing a few streams here. Changing trinkets on LFR would never have to be anything beyond "Instead of Feathers ramping up to 14000 Strength and snapshotting, Feather gives 6000 Strength all the time". If Tier sets become a separate bonus on LFR, that doesn't mean the basic concept of the Tier bonus couldn't apply. All of these would be completely in line with the flavour.

You're making a wild claim about psychology and how a trinket that doesn't offer 100k dps affects what the rest of the masses aspire to. Do you think that a trinket that offers 20k more dps than any other trinket you could be using wouldn't be attractive enough for people who AREN'T raiding, and therefore only have 483's anyway? Because that is a completely ridiculous position to hold.


You want to change LFR completely, you want so it gives different gear that is not compatible with Flex/Normal/Heroic -- you are indeed sounding like "I don't want the unwashed masses to have the same, if weaker, gear than I do"

And you're the one that brought psychology in first. You say you're compelled to run LFR for its shinies. That you have a need to run LFR for its shinies. You then talk about you do it out of peer pressure, because you dont want to be that person who holds back that raid and stuff. There is a psychological effect behind all this. You just think that because you're a heroic raider, what you say has more weight on how LFR should be designed than the people that run LFR because that's all they have access to, and people that still use it as a stopgap and are doing Normals.


Why does what other idiots on the WoW forums and what they used to say in previous expansions have any relevance here? Do you think I'm one of them? ARe you replying to them and not me?


I'm not talking about other forums, I'm talking about THIS forums. And I'm currently talking to you because you sure do sound like they did back then.

In theory, if Flex WAS at 530, LFR would be at 518 or 523. That's actually a couple of tiers above what previous LFR is, not "barely above".


Listen to yourself. You want LFR and Flex so weak that not even Normal raiders would be interested in doing them. Have you been to LFR when its monday? Where every boss has at least 5 stacks of determination?

You want their rewards to be so weak that its barely more powerful from VP gear from the previous tier!! I am sorry, that just sounds like elitism.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:58 am

You want to change LFR completely, you want so it gives different gear that is not compatible with Flex/Normal/Heroic -- you are indeed sounding like "I don't want the unwashed masses to have the same, if weaker, gear than I do"


Again - you're reading what you want to read and responding to your imagination of a Heroic raider. What the "unwashed masses" (a term that you certainly have not had me ever use to refer to the target audience for LFR) have is irrelevant to me. If I wanted to ensure that these "unwashed masses" can't have gear that IS weaker than what I can have anyway, half the possible solutions would not be on the table.

And you're the one that brought psychology in first. You say you're compelled to run LFR for its shinies. That you have a need to run LFR for its shinies. You then talk about you do it out of peer pressure, because you dont want to be that person who holds back that raid and stuff. There is a psychological effect behind all this. You just think that because you're a heroic raider, what you say has more weight on how LFR should be designed than the people that run LFR because that's all they have access to, and people that still use it as a stopgap and are doing Normals.


I actually haven't talked about peer pressure at all, but thanks for making things up and then responding to them. I certainly have not played a "I'm a Heroic raider and I know everything card". "Return on effort" isn't a psychological term, and the only claims I've made on incentive are the LFR offers an incentive, a statement easily provable. Your claim was that by not having UVLS not be as big as it is, only about as big as Cha'Ye's, what the masses aspire to would be affected. That's a claim on an entirely different level, and you glossed over the actual question I asked entirely to rant about Heroic Raiders some more.

What DOES actually give me a bit more weight is that I am a designer - so I know the actual effort behind a suggestion that I can make. AKA, when I point out that a separate itemisation for LFR, which is only one of the suggestions that exists does not in fact create more effort for Blizzard, that's borne from an understand of the design process. It also allows me to ensure that a suggestion that I make preserved the key elements of LFR for the people who run LFR because that's all they have access to - ensuring that character progression remains, ensuring that LFR exists and is going to be something that can be run at any time, and that LFR will not become something that cannot be completed.

I'm not talking about other forums, I'm talking about THIS forums. And I'm currently talking to you because you sure do sound like they did back then.


There is a huge difference between me and the random idiot trying to make sure that LFR can't be good for the people it's intended for.
So far, you've done a terrific job at making up your own imaginary position, in your own words making fun of Heroic raiders, and you're doing a terrific job right now of acting as if "Heroic raiders" are one voice of douchiness, entitlement and "wanting to keep the plebs in their place", in spite of the fact that none of the Heroic raiders who've commented in this thread have adopted that kind of attitude.

You're projecting your own behavioural pattern on other people because you don't like who they are. It's a little disappointing.

I'm still waiting on why you think anything suggested would actually make it so that LFR will not be run by anyone, especially its target audience. You still haven't explained to me what extra effort you think the developers will have to take up for the things you've said will add a whole bunch of work for them. Etc.

Listen to yourself. You want LFR and Flex so weak that not even Normal raiders would be interested in doing them. Have you been to LFR when its monday? Where every boss has at least 5 stacks of determination?

You want their rewards to be so weak that its barely more powerful from VP gear from the previous tier!! I am sorry, that just sounds like elitism.


What I said was that in theory, if Flex was at X, LFR would be at X-13 or X-7, and that those are 1.5-2 tiers above LFR currently is. I didn't actually say that I WANTED LFR and Flex to be there. I've actually said that by removing any conflicting desires, they can freely bump LFR rewards to 535 or so if they desire to.

Please act as though you're reading what I'm saying.

In addition, I do do LFR on Mondays, and no the LFR's I do do not have at least 5 stacks of Determination. The occasional wipe tends to be a result of something silly going on, like a tank who is AFK when Megaera is pulled, and that only ever results in one wipe. Regardless, even if that condition were the norm for LFR, the only result would be that Blizzard would tune LFR down even further.

Look, I get it. You've come across Heroic Raiders that were meanies. Whatever. It's a little bit sad that you can't get over that imagined perception the moment you see someone who IS a Heroic Raider though. I sincerely hope you're willing to actually talk to me, and I definitely hope that when I'm trying to understand why you feel that X or Y would result in the things you claim it will, that you will actually even attempt to explain why you think that. Because right now, I'm trying to discuss something with you, and you're trying to discuss something with someone from 2 years ago.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:06 am

Well, guess what. Ion seems to agree more with me than with you. So we're stuck in this status quo.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:13 am

Klaudandus wrote:Well, guess what. Ion seems to agree more with me than with you. So we're stuck in this status quo.


And the reason this discussion started is that I was pointing out why Ion's opinions of what players do don't match reality, and don't match Blizzard's own stances in some cases. That's not really a status quo, especially since they ARE discussing and iterating on LFR in general, and looking at things like tier in LFR going in the new expansion.

So if you're taking the stance that Ion agrees with you more than he does me, that's not really true. You certainly don't see Ion talking about how much extra effort itemisation would be and that's why they don't want to do something, or how all the hardcores are so whiny and wanting to keep the LFR man down, or that Heroic Raiders lack self-control and that's why they're going after trinkets. All he HAS said is that he doesn't feel that lowering item level is a solution, and I certainly haven't argued otherwise, because it isn't a solution.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:19 am

Actually he does mention that he is aware of arguments like yours, he just doesn't think its enough to dissuade him and change what plans they have for both LFR and Flex.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:25 am

Klaudandus wrote:Actually he does mention that he is aware of arguments like yours, he just doesn't think its enough to dissuade him and change what plans they have for both LFR and Flex.


And you're pulling this from which imaginary Watcher post? If you're talking about this part:
"The separate lockouts do also offer benefits to many guild raiders who may want to work on achievements separately, or may for the first time be able to hop in an off-night raid with some real-life friends on a different server, without it conflicting with their main raid lockout."
Those concepts are preserved in "arguments like mine".

What he's actually said is that he hopes it will be offset by the fact that there will be gating. What I'm talking about removes the need for hiding modes behind 1-2 month gating processes.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:28 am

I realize at the end of the day that parts of our design may simply not be ideal for your personal playstyle, and I understand that perspective, but hopefully some of this sheds some light on our thought process and the different considerations involved.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Darielle » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:32 am

Klaudandus wrote:I realize at the end of the day that parts of our design may simply not be ideal for your personal playstyle, and I understand that perspective, but hopefully some of this sheds some light on our thought process and the different considerations involved.


That's nowhere near what you're trying to make it sound like. Especially because part of his expectations of what players do or feel is based on a high-level theory that doesn't bear out in reality.

Did we really leave the "Hardcore raiders are meanies" for "Watcher is authority"? Because that seems to be pretty selective hiding behind Blizzard coming from you considering some of the things you were saying just a week or two ago. Of course what they do will not be ideal for everyone's personal playstyle. That stays true regardless of what they ever do. As a statement, "we understand this may not be ideal for you, but we understand that and would like to shed some light" is one of the more meaningless and generic PR-ish-statements that can be tacked on to a post by a designer of a product. It would also be true if he decided that Paladins liked running out of mana, and I highly doubt you'd be pretending that's a status quo.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:43 am

There is a big difference between breaking a class/spec and how content is designed.

And one could argue your statement of "Especially because part of his expectations of what players do or feel is based on a high-level theory that doesn't bear out in reality." is highly subjective and biased.

If you think you're so right, go pester him. Apparently others tried already and that's why he chose to respond in that manner in the first place -- which means, he already heard the comments about LFR and Flex ilvls being so "high" (YMMV seeing how T15H is above T16LFR and T16H being almost 40 ilvls about T16LFR) and decided to address that and say they were ok with it.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:31 am

Darielle wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:I realize at the end of the day that parts of our design may simply not be ideal for your personal playstyle, and I understand that perspective, but hopefully some of this sheds some light on our thought process and the different considerations involved.


That's nowhere near what you're trying to make it sound like. Especially because part of his expectations of what players do or feel is based on a high-level theory that doesn't bear out in reality.

Did we really leave the "Hardcore raiders are meanies" for "Watcher is authority"? Because that seems to be pretty selective hiding behind Blizzard coming from you considering some of the things you were saying just a week or two ago. Of course what they do will not be ideal for everyone's personal playstyle. That stays true regardless of what they ever do. As a statement, "we understand this may not be ideal for you, but we understand that and would like to shed some light" is one of the more meaningless and generic PR-ish-statements that can be tacked on to a post by a designer of a product. It would also be true if he decided that Paladins liked running out of mana, and I highly doubt you'd be pretending that's a status quo.


Yes and no.

While it's a PRish statement, given the nonstop whining about Flex and LFR on the forums, it's the PR way of saying "Deal with it".
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby halabar » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:46 am

Darielle wrote:Look, I get it. You've come across Heroic Raiders that were meanies. Whatever. It's a little bit sad that you can't get over that imagined perception the moment you see someone who IS a Heroic Raider though. I sincerely hope you're willing to actually talk to me, and I definitely hope that when I'm trying to understand why you feel that X or Y would result in the things you claim it will, that you will actually even attempt to explain why you think that. Because right now, I'm trying to discuss something with you, and you're trying to discuss something with someone from 2 years ago.


The issue is, as a heroic raider, you are proposing changes to other levels of raiding, to make it better for you. When really, the only impact is that some HC raiders may feel it necessary to run LFR/Flex to fill certain gear slots faster.

So if that's really the issue, all this extra gear that's available, then go to a loot lockout, to remove that temptation. You can still run LFR for valor if you like. Because making changes to other levels of raiding, and impacting many more people to benefit the HC raiders is just stupid.

Frankly, I can't see why the HC raiders are so upset about this. If it was because of all the "baddies" in LFR, then you just run Flex with your guild, and you never have to see the baddies. If however, as it is for a few here and many on the official forums, that LFR is "beneath" them, then they just need to get over themselves.

Also, I really think this is going to be a non-issue for needing to go back for gear. The rollout schedule for Flex is likely going to push LFR back even further, so it might be 6-8 weeks before all of LFR is open. If the HC raider hasn't seen that trinket or shield in that timeframe, they should welcome a chance to get an upgrade another way, instead of trying to make changes so they don't have to run it.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Dion » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:08 am

Darielle wrote:Consider then why Valor cap is still in the game. Also, you're confusing the Asia lockout structure somewhat.

Blizzard wrote:We received several feedbacks regarding raid instance lockouts and 10/25 rewards, and we appreciate your opinions and deep interests. We thought that Korean players wish to enjoy the most hardcore contents more flexibly and according to their play styles. Therefore, from the upcoming patch we decided to change the raid instance lockout rules for all KR servers. Raids, as usual, will be reset every 7 days following maintainance checks. However, after 5.1 patch 10 man and 25 man raids will have seperate lockouts.

From now on, players could play raid instances, such as Mogu-Shan Vaults, in both 10 man and 25 man difficulty. Normal and Heroic difficulty raid of same instance will share same lockout as usual. Furthermore, the loots of 25 man raids has been buffed, and will offer higher iLV compared to same 10 man instance. For example, Terrace of the Endless Spring in 25 man difficulty will drop loots with iLV of 504, wile 10 man will drop 496.

We wish that players will further enjoy the contents and gain satisfactory rewards, and decided to offer the system that suits most well with the KR players.


I understood Blizzards post that way that asian raiders didn't like separation to 25 and 10 man modes and it was affecting their fun. It could also stated that theyare doing proper HC raiding as ilevel and challenge is bigger than in europe/usa who are doing softcore raiding but that's not relevant for this discussion. :)

I don't feel like there's a problem in the game but there seems to be problem with the players and I don't think blizzard should hold those players hands and
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:25 am

Darielle wrote:Look, I get it. You've come across Heroic Raiders that were meanies. Whatever. It's a little bit sad that you can't get over that imagined perception the moment you see someone who IS a Heroic Raider though. I sincerely hope you're willing to actually talk to me, and I definitely hope that when I'm trying to understand why you feel that X or Y would result in the things you claim it will, that you will actually even attempt to explain why you think that. Because right now, I'm trying to discuss something with you, and you're trying to discuss something with someone from 2 years ago.


Not all heroic raiders agree with you in the first place. There are those that are ok with how things are; Theck himself said it, that he and his guild will quickly ignore LFR and Flex, and he's more Heroic Raider than you.

Also, it's hard to talk to you when you claim its perfectly fine to have LFR and Flex below T15H, even though they kind of already are. T16LFR and T16Flex need to be meaningful enough. If T16LFR was 518 (as an example), even if it progresses a character, it is not meaningful enough vis a vis gear that is already easily available thru VP from the previous tier.

Didn't we have a discussion about heroic modes needing to have ilvl gear superior to all others? That the jump in power had to be meaningful enough? At one point it was brought up that heroic gear needed just half an ilvl jump on it over normal but heroic raiders argued they needed more in order to feel meaningful? That it was just not the matter of prestige of having completed something hard, but also needed something to show up for it?

It is the same mental process. The ilvls in LFR and Flex need to be meaningful enough over the previous tier, and are low enough towards the goal heroic raiders will eventually reach.

And I find your Heroic Raiders will do LFR/Flex for the rewards argument to be highly subjective. More than an economic factor, I find it a psychological factor. A need to replace all the gear from the previous tier for something more powerful, this is in fact true for everyone, regardless of the content they raid. What I still think you dismiss is that LFR raiders do want to feel like they're wearing a similar, if less powerful gear than heroic raiders. That is also a psychological factor to account for when designing the content. I agree my own argument is subjective as well, but is equally as subjective as yours. That is leading to us talk over each other, I just happen to actually be aware of the conundrum.

With LFR and Flex opening later than normal and heroic modes, and in a gated manner, should diminish the value of LFR and Flex to heroic raiders -- and if you have had bad luck in Normal/Heroics in the first couple of weeks in the content, I think one would appreciate the idea of having an extra chance at loot from LFR/Flex down the road.

Now tell me, and be honest about it, would you be happier if heroic loot was completely different than Normal/Flex gear, both in itemization, power and art?
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Koatanga » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:19 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Now tell me, and be honest about it, would you be happier if heroic loot was completely different than Normal/Flex gear, both in itemization, power and art?

The answer to that must be "no" because it's inevitable that there will be some LFR/Flex piece that is itemised such as to make it ideal for some heroic person, effectively forcing them to run lower content if they want to get it.

I recon there should be a global 2 loots per boss per week - one "wow loot system" type and one "group loot"/"master looter" type. You can loot once per Heroic/Norm boss and once per LFR/Flex boss. If someone really needs loot from Flex, I am sure the Heroic team could knock out the entire raid in less than an hour.

I would also like to see raid lockouts that were extendable as per the LFR sections. If a raid instance is divided into 3 4-boss chunks, then it should be extendable in the same way. You can start on boss 4 if you previously beat 3 or more, or boss 6 if you beat 5 or more. I dislike wasting time on bosses 1-3 that have been cleared a ton of times when working on boss 6 or 8, while people still want from boss 5.
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Re: LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby theckhd » Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:08 pm

Thels wrote:
Darielle wrote:- I don't have a problem with Theck's/Thels' concepts, so that's another possiblity.


The "Get your free LFR or Flex gear with your Normal/HC clear" would indeed fix the entire issue, but feels a little too much like "Here, have tons of extra gear for free." I could see it happening with free LFR loot in Normal/HC, but free LFR loot in Flex and free Flex loot in Normal/HC feels a little over the top to me.


To be clear, I wasn't suggesting free LFR loot in Flex. Only LFR/Flex loot in normal/heroic. I think that even Flex loot in normal would be a bit much, to be honest, since there are actually legitimate reasons for normal raiders to go raid Flex.

So I was just thinking that you automatically get your LFR roll when killing a boss on normal/heroic. That removes any motivation for a player that can clear normal to go back and do LFR, which addresses the issue without having any effect on LFR loot itself.

As far as "free loot," keep in mind that the vast majority of the gear a heroic raider would get from their LFR roll is worthless to them. Apart from a handful of specific items (trinkets, a shield perhaps if they've had atrocious luck), it's all just going to get disenchanted or vendored. So I don't think it's accurate to think of it as "tons of extra gear for free." It's more like "here's another 30g per boss," and that can easily be compensated for by having the bosses drop less gold.

I still would prefer to be able to leverage that extra LFR roll as an increase to bonus rolls, because that lets the normal/heroic raider have a better chance on the couple items they do want.
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