LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

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LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Postby Thels » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:36 am

The biggest worry was that people were forced to run both Flex and LFR in addition to Normal/HC, but LFR with 528 seems low enough that not even normal raiders should bother, save for tier pieces/trinkets.

Normals will probably have good reason to run Flex, but being in a Normal guild, it's probably not demanded of you to max out your gear.

I don't see how they can do much better without giving people that run Normal/HC the personal LFR loot in addition to the boss drops (for wings that opened in LFR).
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby halabar » Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:19 am

Thels wrote:The biggest worry was that people were forced to run both Flex and LFR in addition to Normal/HC, but LFR with 528 seems low enough that not even normal raiders should bother, save for tier pieces/trinkets.

Normals will probably have good reason to run Flex, but being in a Normal guild, it's probably not demanded of you to max out your gear.

I don't see how they can do much better without giving people that run Normal/HC the personal LFR loot in addition to the boss drops (for wings that opened in LFR).


I always find the "normal" and "hc" mode labels a misnomer, as they don't allow for variations in progression.

Let's put it another way...

If your guild hasn't cleared normal, or hasn't at least made significant progress in Siege by the time all wings of LFR are open (6-8 weeks?), some members of your team likely need the gear from LFR to help progress. Same goes for Flex, if you still haven't made a lot of headway by the time all the Flex wings are open (4-5 weeks?) you'll likely benefit from some of the gear, especially tier, trinkets, and weapons.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby halabar » Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:20 am

Klaudandus wrote:Flex will drop 540 ilvl gear -- with nice link to thread that shoots down people complaining that flex gear from SoO is superior to the heroic gear from ToT.
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2647 ... ar-on-ptr/


Yeah, they pretty much shot that down, including LFR doesn't need gear argument.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Thels » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:18 am

halabar wrote:
Thels wrote:The biggest worry was that people were forced to run both Flex and LFR in addition to Normal/HC, but LFR with 528 seems low enough that not even normal raiders should bother, save for tier pieces/trinkets.

Normals will probably have good reason to run Flex, but being in a Normal guild, it's probably not demanded of you to max out your gear.

I don't see how they can do much better without giving people that run Normal/HC the personal LFR loot in addition to the boss drops (for wings that opened in LFR).


I always find the "normal" and "hc" mode labels a misnomer, as they don't allow for variations in progression.

Let's put it another way...

If your guild hasn't cleared normal, or hasn't at least made significant progress in Siege by the time all wings of LFR are open (6-8 weeks?), some members of your team likely need the gear from LFR to help progress. Same goes for Flex, if you still haven't made a lot of headway by the time all the Flex wings are open (4-5 weeks?) you'll likely benefit from some of the gear, especially tier, trinkets, and weapons.


If you have ToT normal on farm by the time 5.4 hits, then you should have 530ish gear from 2/2 upgrades/thunderforged. Even if LFR was out on day 1, the average LFR items are a downgrade. Yes, there are tier pieces and trinkets that might be an individual improvement, but if you're in a normal guild, you are not likely to be demanded to gear yourself to the max, so you could do them if you want to, but it would be your own individual choice. Is it perfect? No. But it feels quite reasonable.

If you are still working your way through ToT normal by the time 5.4 hits, then likely any gear you can get from 5.4 will help you to finally clear ToT, and then move on to SoO.
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Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:05 pm

Flex will drop 540 ilvl gear -- with nice link to thread that shoots down people complaining that flex gear from SoO is superior to the heroic gear from ToT.


It doesn't really shoot it down all that well, or at all really. While people will be doing 4-sets, trinkets, etc. as they normally do, they ARE going to be doing more than they currently are for the weeks/months until those trinkets and 4-sets are completed, because both LFR and Flex come into play.

Moreover, it does nothing to address the actual burnout effect that multiple runs have anyway, even if we're no longer in the era where people needed 75 Badges to get their tier piece, and they needed that tier piece to even USE Trophies. The motivation doesn't diminish fallout.

And the idea that the current structure supports that is even more asinine because the trinkets are specifically just THAT powerful. UVLS alone breaks specs, and the 5.4 trinkets offer that kind of power to almost every role. Given that they CAN do loot lockouts that don't conflict with things like doing achievements in Flex, or helping out friends .....

More, on the one hand he's talking about items getting disenchanted because they might not be big enough upgrades, but on the other acknowledging slots that no matter what ilvl will be godly. Given that things like sockets, itemisation and all of that come into play, and especially have historically been used to help make end-tiers even better, that doesn't even jive all that well.

Watcher has relatively decent insight on a high level. But the implementations they're choosing don't exactly match their own insights.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Thels » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:35 am

The problem is, Tier Pieces and Trinkets will be considered interesting regardless of their ilvl. The ilvls are low enough that HC raiders won't need regular gear from LFR/Flex and Normal raiders won't need regular gear from LFR, which is good.

There's just not anything they can do to the tiers and trinkets ilvl wise that would prevent people from going after them.

The only thing that could fix the problem even more is, if you're doing normal/heroic, and you're killing a boss that is available in LFR which you haven't downed in LFR yet this week, you get the LFR loot, in addition to the regular normal/heroic loot. That would save people from having to farm 3 different versions of the same raid on one character. I doubt that'll ever happen, though.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:16 am

Darielle wrote:
Flex will drop 540 ilvl gear -- with nice link to thread that shoots down people complaining that flex gear from SoO is superior to the heroic gear from ToT.


It doesn't really shoot it down all that well, or at all really. While people will be doing 4-sets, trinkets, etc. as they normally do, they ARE going to be doing more than they currently are for the weeks/months until those trinkets and 4-sets are completed, because both LFR and Flex come into play.


That sounds like blaming Lays because you cannot just eat one chip.

a)Flex and LFR are gonna open in parts, and LFR is gonna open up at a slower pace.
b)You can do only the parts of the raid you actually need, if you want.
c)Once you're done you don't have to go back.

It always sounds like heroic raiders just dont want LFR/Flex gear to be good at all so they don't get tempted to do them in the slightest.

And obviously Blizz doesn't think the heroic raiders' worries warrant enough to actually change the loot system for people that aren't heroic, since that makes most of the raiding population.

That's the reason why I say Blizz shot it down, because they obviously disagree with heroic raiders.

I remember Dragon Soul, with people here in the forums complaining that LFR Dragon Soul should be giving blues, with trinkets and tier pieces completely different from normal/heroic so as they, as heroic raiders, would not be tempted to run LFR.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:37 am

That sounds like blaming Lays because you cannot just eat one chip.


Uh.
That would be somewhat of an analogy if eating Lays actually got you things like money and the system of Life made you better off eating more Lays.

A system which has an incentive to do X is going to have people doing X. Turning that around and going "Why are you doing this if you don't want to?" is a little bit silly.

The problem is, Tier Pieces and Trinkets will be considered interesting regardless of their ilvl. The ilvls are low enough that HC raiders won't need regular gear from LFR/Flex and Normal raiders won't need regular gear from LFR, which is good.

There's just not anything they can do to the tiers and trinkets ilvl wise that would prevent people from going after them.

The only thing that could fix the problem even more is ....


They'll be considered interesting, but that doesn't mean they'll be mandatory.
And just to note - "HC raiders" encompasses people whose only hardmode content is Jin'rokh. They're still going to be using 517's and 509's in slots , if they did T14 Heroic at all, which is unlikely. Normal mode raiders encompasses people who don't even have Megaera down. They'll still going to be benefiting from 502's/510's.

Or, you know, a loot lockout. Except instead of "first one you down in the week", with the option to actually specify "I don't want loot".

Moreover, I'm pretyt sure Dragon Soul WAS where they adjusted the proc rates on LFR weapons so that they wouldn't be godly must-haves. Certainly it's an option for LFR trinkets, which will still be an upgrade for its intended audience if UVLS' proc gave 40% crit with an adjusted proc rate or some such, or if the Tier pieces modified the strength of the set bonus etc, or if the LFR set simply had separate bonuses.

It always sounds like heroic raiders just dont want LFR/Flex gear to be good at all so they don't get tempted to do them in the slightest.

And obviously Blizz doesn't think the heroic raiders' worries warrant enough to actually change the loot system for people that aren't heroic, since that makes most of the raiding population.

That's the reason why I say Blizz shot it down, because they obviously disagree with heroic raiders.

I remember Dragon Soul, with people here in the forums complaining that LFR Dragon Soul should be giving blues, with trinkets and tier pieces completely different from normal/heroic so as they, as heroic raiders, would not be tempted to run LFR.


I'm pretty sure Heroic raiders would be happy just not having an incentive to do LFR. If the gear stays exactly how it is but there's a loot lockout so that the only time you would ever have to go into LFR is if you've missed a boss by being on standby, I expect it would be fine.

And that "obviously" doesn't even make sense. Blizzard obviously think those are warranted comments, because they've gone to lengths to at least give the impression of minimising it somewhat, and ARE in the future going to be discussing the benefits/implementations of divesting things further; it's not something to just spring mid-expansion.

What actually follows is that while they have a high-level idea of the problem, someone like Watcher doesn't completely understand the finer details. "And yes, while you could upgrade your Flex 540 to make it superior to a 541 or 543, you won't -- if you're a Heroic raider today, you'll be getting 553+ Normal mode loot the moment Siege of Orgrimmar opens, and upgrading that will be a priority." for example doesn't quite bear scrutiny, because upgrading a 528 godly trinket twice is going to be more meaningful than 8 ilvls on a 553 ring. Similarly, upgrading a 540+8 Chest will be better than 8 ilvls on a 553 Ring. Part of the entire point of their reduction of Upgrade costs was to make Upgrades easier to decide on, so this isn't an either/or ANYWAY - unless you literally get showered in more than 2 pieces every week.
Last edited by Darielle on Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:47 am

So, because the top guilds get sponsorships, blizz should totally make sure that they dont have an incentive at all to run lfr/flex, even though they're the smallest percentage of the wow population? That logic is awesome!

Also, didn't the first section of LFR open like a week or two later for ToT? I mean, LFR Lei-shen didnt open until about 6 weeks after ToT had opened, and top guilds had already killed Lei-shen by then!

So, I'm still pretty unsure how this is gonna force them to run LFR when by the time LFR opens up, they're most likely already done with all the content anyways.

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fetzie » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:00 am

Also, didn't the first section of LFR open like a week or two later for ToT? I mean, LFR Lei-shen didnt open until about 6 weeks after ToT had opened, and top guilds had already killed Lei-shen by then!


Even we had killed Lei Shen 25N before is was available for LFR!
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:16 am

So, because the top guilds get sponsorships, blizz should totally make sure that they dont have an incentive at all to run lfr/flex, even though they're the smallest percentage of the wow population? That logic is awesome!

Also, didn't the first section of LFR open like a week or two later for ToT? I mean, LFR Lei-shen didnt open until about 6 weeks after ToT had opened, and top guilds had already killed Lei-shen by then!

So, I'm still pretty unsure how this is gonna force them to run LFR when by the time LFR opens up, they're most likely already done with all the content anyways.


You know what logic is even more awesome? Equating "Heroic raiders" or "an incentive at all to run lfr/flex" to "top guilds".

LFR Lei Shen took a long time to open. That didn't make UVLS or Rune any less powerful, and it certainly didn't mean that people who still don't have them still don't have them.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:18 am

You were the one that brought in the top guilds with your comments about money, not me. Just following your train of thought.

That would be somewhat of an analogy if eating Lays actually got you things like money
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:22 am

Klaudandus wrote:You were the one that brought in the top guilds with your comments about money, not me. Just following your train of thought.


What?

I brought it money on the Lays analogy to point out that Lays does not give you an advantage when it comes to Life. There's no incentive to eat more Lays - no consequential reward like money.

Whereas within the system that is WoW, the system gives you an incentive to do LFR, to do Flex, to do X activities outside of raiding, the original purpose of which was because they want people doing said activities. You can't turn around on an incentive system and berate/blame people for following it.

It has nothing to do with sponsorships or top guilds.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:24 am

Can we stop repeating arguments we've had before but with the term LFR instead of Flex.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:26 am

Flex wrote:Can we stop repeating arguments we've had before but with the term LFR instead of Flex.


Interestingly, the fact that they've been had before doesn't actually diminish them, considering that Flex adds on top of what already exists and doesn't even act as a replacement for LFR.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:28 am

Yeah, but in the end, you reach a point where you don't need to do it anymore! The incentive is gone once you reach your goal/reason to do X activity.

I don't do LFR anymore on any of my toons because I got my legendary cloak and all the items I needed. Even before getting my legendary cloak, I was only doing 2 LFR wings out of the 4 available.

You come up with this concept that people will be overwhelmed and forced to run ALL LFRS ALL THE TIME, plus Flex, plus Normal/Heroic -- when blizz said that Flex and LFR will be opened by parts, and not all at the same time. Chances are, you might not need to do LFR/Flex if you get lucky enough to get what you need out of it in the first couple of runs.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenrìr » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:29 am

It's not supposed to a replacement to LFR...it's an option for people who have fluctuating raid teams but don't want to actually go to a normal raid set up.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:30 am

I still think, come next expansion, that Flex will replace normal modes.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:32 am

Darielle wrote:
Flex wrote:Can we stop repeating arguments we've had before but with the term LFR instead of Flex.


Interestingly, the fact that they've been had before doesn't actually diminish them, considering that Flex adds on top of what already exists and doesn't even act as a replacement for LFR.


But the arguments are as uninteresting now as they were then.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:33 am

I swear the only way heroic raiders are gonna be happy with flex/lfr is those modes offer completely different loot, including non-tier gear and none of the trinkets from Normal/Heroic modes. And Blizz already nixed that.

Although Tier16 bonuses are completely meh for Paladins this time around =P
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:35 am

Blizzard has said non-LFR raids will have extra stuff not obtainable in LFR...
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenrìr » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:36 am

I don't see that lasting long though, Flex.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:40 am

Well, it already kind of happens. Normals/Heroics get to see BoP random drops more often than LFR.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:44 am

Fenrìr wrote:It's not supposed to a replacement to LFR...it's an option for people who have fluctuating raid teams but don't want to actually go to a normal raid set up.


Context.

Flex isn't supposed to be a replacement for LFR, but that's not what was being said. The additional loot doesn't take on the format of an either/or setup where you either try your second time in Flex or try a second time in LFR, it adds on so that you can try a second time in Flex, and if that doesn't payout, you try a third time in LFR.

Yeah, but in the end, you reach a point where you don't need to do it anymore! The incentive is gone once you reach your goal/reason to do X activity.

I don't do LFR anymore on any of my toons because I got my legendary cloak and all the items I needed. Even before getting my legendary cloak, I was only doing 2 LFR wings out of the 4 available.

You come up with this concept that people will be overwhelmed and forced to run ALL LFRS ALL THE TIME, plus Flex, plus Normal/Heroic -- when blizz said that Flex and LFR will be opened by parts, and not all at the same time. Chances are, you might not need to do LFR/Flex if you get lucky enough to get what you need out of it in the first couple of runs.


And you say this as a class that gets entirely broken with a trinket? Do you think the chance to get things within the first few runs is particularly high to the point that it won't leave you MUCH more likely to still not have the item at the end of it? Did your legendary cloak take just a couple of weeks to complete from 5.2? I doubt it. Do you think you got particularly lucky on Secrets/Runestones, unlike the people who still haven't finished since it hasn't even been that long since Lei Shen got adjusted for his guaranteed drop yet? You think that you did it on more than one character diminishes the time you spent in it, as opposed to accentuating it?

You're coming up with a concept that you want to see - a supposed extreme about all lfr's all the time, that no one has actually suggested. It even allows you to ignore the entire concept of a loot lockout (which was applied for the exact reason discussed for the Legendary quest) and any and every other possiblity and go on with nonsense like "I swear the only way heroic raiders are gonna be happy with flex/lfr is those modes offer completely different loot, including non-tier gear and none of the trinkets from Normal/Heroic modes. And Blizz already nixed that" based on your imaginary concept of the douchebag hardcore raider, as if hardcore raiders were even one entity to begin with.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:54 am

Well, tell me how would you stop heroic raiders from complaining about people doing LFR/Flex and getting gear from it?

There needs to be a carrot at the end of the stick, regardless of what kind of raider you are.

What's more, seeing it from Blizz' perspective, it's better to piss off the heroic raiders than lfr/flex/normal raiders seeing as heroic raiders make the smallest of the group, population wise.

And if I mention the whole LFR ALL THE TIME is because that was an argument back in Dragon Soul! How heroic raiders were forced to do LFR to get tier pieces/trinkets. Oh the humanity!

Heroic raiders are the ones making a mountain out of a molehill regarding having the chance to do LFR/Flex just to get an extra piece of gear, and no one else. What's that... an extra hour of game time?
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