Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Lieris » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:30 am

Talking of scroungers, looks like the royal baby will be born pretty soon!

KysenMurrin wrote:I have in all seriousness started to consider emigrating in protest if Britain exits the EU. Not sure how realistic that plan would be, though - would depend on money and employment.


It's looking grim isn't it? :(

Some people seem to think it's inherently wrong to give power to organisations that aren't "your" nation, but that's just short-sighted, small-minded xenophobia and nationalism that doesn't really have much logic behind it (and they never go the whole way down the rabbit hole and suggest local rule for all the counties etc). Other anti-EU folks are just being economically selfish, treating international business as a zero-sum competition where success in their home territory is all that matters.


I think it's quite telling that of all things, the European Court of Human Rights has been vilified by the right. They have completely dominated the conversation, getting people to simultaneously believe that Brussels is a waste of money where nothing gets done and yet where they control everything.

I voted Yes to AV, on an "at least it's better than what we do now" basis, but alas the public ate up the No campaign. It's always easier to get people to support "tradition". AV would have allowed us to begin breaking away from this two-and-a-half party system, made it possible for others to gain ground.


So did I because I had hoped it would be a stepping stone to STV. Sadly Labour and Tory loyalists love the 2 party system and couldn't bring themselves to do the right thing. The joke will be on Labour if Scotland secede and we get a 1 party system!

I don't know what I'll do come the 2015 elections. I had decided to vote my conscience and not on a lesser-evil basis, but at this time it might be necessary to vote Labour for the best shot at getting the Tories out.


For me it depends on which constituency I will be eligible to vote in come 2015. I have always voted Lib Dem and would have suffered gladly through this coalition if it had meant some form of PR in national elections, house of lords reform, abolishing university fees and other such Lib Dem pet policies had been implemented. Alas...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:05 am

Politics in the US would probably be well served by a reality show format. Stick all the candidates together in the same house for 12 weeks, hold a weekly debate, and let viewers vote for all the positions.

It couldn't possibly be any worse than what we've got now, and at least then the voters would have zero reason for not knowing the candidates. Currently, people are more influenced by political attack ads than the actual politicians themselves - and the mudslinging gets downright ridiculous. I remember one where they were attacking Kirsten Sinema(sp? I know I've got the last name spelled right, but don't remember the first name) and it was laughably ridiculous. She got elected, but the smear campaign against her was pretty staggering.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:28 am

Yeah, and there was also that time where they were trying to smear a former wow player for a comment about her liking to stab people in the back with daggers (yeah, she was a horde rogue) -- i think she won.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:31 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:I just wonder why Stand your Ground was valid when it took someone's life, and not in the case of firing warning shots in order to deter your attacker. O_o


From TFA, she left the house, got a gun, and came back into the house.

According to the judge's order, "there is insufficient evidence that the Defendant reasonably believed deadly force was needed to prevent death or great bodily harm to herself," and that the fact that she came back into the home, instead of leaving out the front or back door "is inconsistent with a person who is in genuine fear for her life."


The 20 year sentence is a byproduct of adhering to stupid laws.



Well, by using the logic that she left the house, got a gun, and came back, If Zimmerman would have adhered to the standing order he received from the police (STAY IN YOUR CAR, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO ENGAGE THE "SUSPECT"), Deadly Force wouldn't have needed to be used either.

Zimmerman is guilty of a misdemeanor crime: Failure to follow order or signal of an officer of the law, which then led him to end up in a situation where he shouldn't have been. I have a serious problem with him disobeying an order from the police, doing something stupid, and then being able to call it "stand your ground".

It's ok, the way it works out is better. He's going to be found liable for wrongful death. The only thing that they will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, is that he disobeyed the order from the police, and that had he abided by the law, and directive, Martin would still be alive.

Wrongful death.

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Jabari » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:51 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Jabari wrote:I don't know anything about that case right now. I'd have to look around some and get back to you. From a brief glance, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, though. Care to expand?

Please note that the linked article has been updated since you posted that, so I can't tell what's different between what you read and what I just did. *shrug*


I just wonder why Stand your Ground was valid when it took someone's life, and not in the case of firing warning shots in order to deter your attacker. O_o

Before I go any further: Where have you been getting your information on the Zimmerman trial from?

Same quesetion applies for you Shoju.

fuzzygeek wrote:From TFA <snip>

As I mentioned before, that article had been updated after he originally linked it. I think we can give him a pass for not having a clue this time.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Lieris » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:05 am

I think they're referring to stand your ground being in the juror's instructions.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:26 am

My information is publicly available. They released the tapes of the 911 Phone Call. They released that this phone call took place before the alteraction, and in the call he references that he is in his car.

Eye Witness interviews say that the altercation took place outside of a car, in the grass.

Past that, there really isn't much needed. He was told to do something by an officer of the law.
He didn't do it. He did the opposite
A quick google of Florida Revised Code reveals that Florida also has a Failure to Comply with Order or signal of an officer of the law in their code of laws.

He didn't follow the order of a law officer (news flash: 911 operators are Police Officers)
He committed a crime.
Which then led to an alteraction with someone he didn't know, who looked suspicious.
There was no Crime actively happening when this happened. He was just a suspicious person of interest in the neighborhood.
Had he waited in his car as instructed on the 911 call, he would not have gotten into the altercation, Martin would still be alive, he wouldn't have gotten the shit beat out of him, and he wouldn't have ruined his life.

But because he didn't follow the order, he got into an altercation that put him in harms way. I find the justification of deadly force in this situation ridiculous. Breaking the law, and then killing someone because it put you in harms way isn't standing your ground. It's Vigilante behavior that now has trial law precedence as being acceptable in the state of Florida.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:54 am

Jabari wrote:I think we can give him a pass for not having a clue this time.

Umm. Thanks? :(
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:18 am

Shoju wrote:Past that, there really isn't much needed. He was told to do something by an officer of the law.
He didn't do it. He did the opposite


Here is the transcript of the call:
http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/ ... erman.html

The closest thing to being told to do something is this:
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.

Which is hardly an order to stay in the car -- Zimmerman was already out of his car at this point -- and was a key point admitted by the prosecution.

This breaks your first point that Zimmerman broke the law by disobeying an officer of the law, and was specifically addressed during the trial. But it's a potent talking point and makes for nice emotional hyperventilating.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:31 am

Shoju wrote:My information is publicly available. They released the tapes of the 911 Phone Call. They released that this phone call took place before the alteraction, and in the call he references that he is in his car.

Eye Witness interviews say that the altercation took place outside of a car, in the grass.

Past that, there really isn't much needed. He was told to do something by an officer of the law.
He didn't do it. He did the opposite
A quick google of Florida Revised Code reveals that Florida also has a Failure to Comply with Order or signal of an officer of the law in their code of laws.

He didn't follow the order of a law officer (news flash: 911 operators are Police Officers)
He committed a crime.
Which then led to an alteraction with someone he didn't know, who looked suspicious.
There was no Crime actively happening when this happened. He was just a suspicious person of interest in the neighborhood.
Had he waited in his car as instructed on the 911 call, he would not have gotten into the altercation, Martin would still be alive, he wouldn't have gotten the shit beat out of him, and he wouldn't have ruined his life.

But because he didn't follow the order, he got into an altercation that put him in harms way. I find the justification of deadly force in this situation ridiculous. Breaking the law, and then killing someone because it put you in harms way isn't standing your ground. It's Vigilante behavior that now has trial law precedence as being acceptable in the state of Florida.

Shoju
While that information is public record, there is no freaking way you actually read it because your information is ridiculously false.  That's actually quite reasonable because most of the media stories have had the same false information too.  First of all, the call did not take place from Zimmerman's car, it started there but it most definitely did not end up there.
 
Zimmerman was already following Martin, and the 911 operator asked if he was following, Zimmerman said that he was, and the 911 operator said "We don't need you to do that".  That's it, there was no freaking order to stay in the car, which would be insanely stupid because he wasn't in his car.  There was no order to stop following Martin, There was no order to do anything at all. 
 
Further, Zimmerman responded "OK" and then started having a conversation indicating that he was heading back to his truck and that he would meet the police at his truck.  It was also clear that he didn't know where Martin was, because he wouldn't give out his address in case Martin heard it.  All of which is consistent with Zimmerman's statement that he was jumped by Martin while heading back to his truck. 

That's really where the problem is, we don't know what happened in that time after the call and up to Martin's death, but there's no evidence that Zimmerman actually reached Martin.  The evidence we do have lends credibility to Zimmerman's story.  The burden of proof is on the prosecution, and they didn't have much to work with.  Maybe Zimmerman did find Martin and instigated the altercation, but there is no proof of that.
 
Also Zimmerman did not invoke the stand your ground law.
 
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Jabari » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:21 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Jabari wrote:I think we can give him a pass for not having a clue this time.

Umm. Thanks? :(

Heh, just giving you a hard time.
(But with a point. I had asked you a while back where you usually got your information from and you never answered. You didn't answer it this time either - I'm beginning to think that's deliberate. I think it would do you some good to expand your horizons a bit and was going to give suggestions. No, not National Review or Free Republic, I promise! :) )

Shoju wrote:He didn't follow the order of a law officer (news flash: 911 operators are Police Officers)
He committed a crime.

This is false BTW. "Orders" from 911 dispatchers are not binding nor required to be followed.

Fridmarr wrote:That's actually quite reasonable because most of the media stories have had the same false information too.

Yup. I'd take this further and say that "most of the media stories have deliberately painted a false narrative".

The interesting question to ask is "why?"

Fridmarr wrote:Also Zimmerman did not invoke the stand your ground law.

See Klaud - this is why I asked you why you thought the two cases were related, and where you get your info. SYG has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the Zimmerman case! The defense specifically waived a hearing for that before the trial started.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:04 pm

Probably missed that part. I am normally good enough with providing links. Heck, I even provided links to back up Fridmarr's poll numbers! =P

But if you ever link me to NRO or Freepers... I will retaliate. >=P
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:15 pm

I'll post a link to the piece I read, that had the transcript of the call. I would have wagered money that he was told to not pursue, or follow, or something along those lines. After reading what you posted, I'm now really curious if I'm just not remembering correctly (a point I'm willing to admit, since I haven't read it since last year when the 911 call was released), or if the piece I read was factually inaccurate.

I will say though, that at least in Ohio, orders from a 911 operator are as binding as orders from a police officer in person, as was argued in court, and then appellate courts not too long ago (in the last 8-12 years I would say). I will dig up a link on that as well. That it would be different state to state is surprising.

I can't search much on my work computer, or I'd post from here.

I've tried to stick pretty clear of this case. I've read (and now reread the call), and I've read several other pieces of case law. I've stayed way the hell away from the trial. It's a powder keg. Even if I'm wrong and the piece I originally read was factually accruate, My opinion largely remains that Zimmerman was the aggressor, even after reading the transcript you linked to. He didn't have to end up in a fight. He did his "civic duty". This wasn't a burglary. There wasn't a crime in progress. It was just some kid he thought was being sketchy. He showed an attitude of unhappiness with law enforcement response to the situation "because these assholes always get away".

What would really give me a sense of how far out of line Zimmerman was: where was the shooting in relation to the original place he said he would be? Why did he then want them to call him when they got in the area?

I still think he's going to end up losing a wrongful death civil case, and I believe he should. It didn't need to come to that.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:26 pm

I listened to it after reading these posts.

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/raw-911 ... ice/vGZq9/

The only thing said is "We don't need you to do that". It's hard to tell what Zimmerman does from the call; he never actually says outright that he'll go back to the truck. He does tell them to call him when they get there instead of agreeing to wait where they can find him.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:10 pm

There is a transcript error in that earlier link too. When asked if he wanted to meet with the police when they arrived Zimmerman answered 'Yes', that answer was omitted.  Also the question asking  basically "where do you want them to meet you" was attributed to Zimmerman, but obviously that was asked by the 911 operator.

It is plausible (and even quite likely) that Zimmerman wanted the police to call because he had to go back to his truck to figure out the address where it was. So he could tell the police where he was.He indicated as much when they asked him where he was parked. Or maybe he wanted a chance to find Martin before they came, it's hard to say.
 
Even with no evidence you are free to believe he was the aggressor, but as far as the trial is concerned (in my best Tom Cruise voice)...It doesn't matter what you believe, it only matters what you can prove. 
 
When the case broke I paid attention to the case a bit, so most of my knowledge is from that.  I didn't follow the trial at all, so maybe I missed something, but for all the amazing amount of false information (and man has this thread contributed to that...), hypocritical rhetoric, indications that America (or Florida) just legalized the murder of african americans (...yay more death panels), and all the other idiotic nonsense people are spewing, I have yet to see anyone point to any particular evidence at all, much less evidence that overcomes reasonable doubt.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:14 pm

I don't know enough about any of it to comment. I just find it amusing that one of the things that made Trayvon look suspicious to Zimmerman was that he was eyeing up the strange guy sat staring at him while on the phone.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Lieris » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:18 pm

Zimmerman is a racist and a murderer and his supporters are cut from the same cloth as he is. It's a joke that this pile of human excrement walks free and with the murder weapon. This is a self-appointed sherif with a criminal record who stalked then murdered an unarmed teenager and yet he has cheerleaders who are continuing to vilify Trayvon and blame him for his own murder. Shameless and gross.

This is a good opinion piece IMO: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ys-verdict
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:21 pm

It does not truly legalize the murder of young african americans (the whole open season is quite the hyperbole), that's fer sure; but does nothing to alleviate the idea among african americans that the system plays with loaded dice. (not saying this is actually happening)

It is very clear this is a shooting that shouldn't have happened in the first place -- in part because both men's instinct switched to Fight rather than to Flight.

And that said, it is very possible that many of us would have had the same reaction if we're approached by some stranger that has been stalking after your for several blocks.

I do think Zimmerman should have gone to jail. That's just me.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:34 pm

Lieris wrote:Zimmerman is a racist and a murderer and his supporters are cut from the same cloth as he is. It's a joke that this pile of human excrement walks free and with the murder weapon. This is a self-appointed sherif with a criminal record who stalked then murdered an unarmed teenager and yet he has cheerleaders who are continuing to vilify Trayvon and blame him for his own murder. Shameless and gross.

This is a good opinion piece IMO: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ys-verdict


/facepalm
 
That article is so full of misinformation (I mean come on, we just covered this) and rhetoric it's sad.  It's still legal to shoot a black man because you don't like the look of him...is it open season on black boys after dark...herp derp. 
 
So out of curiosity, if Zimmerman was returning to his truck, and was jumped by Martin, does that change your opinion?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Lieris » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:35 pm

Klaudandus wrote:It does not truly legalize the murder of young african americans (the whole open season is quite the hyperbole), that's fer sure;


It's how African Americans feel right now.

but does nothing to alleviate the idea among african americans that the system plays with loaded dice. (not saying this is actually happening)


The entire criminal justice system is institutionally racist. That Zimmerman wasn't arrested initially and they did toxicology tests on Trayvon's body and not Zimmerman says it all. They tried to blame Trayvon for his own murder, paint him as a thug and brush this one under the carpet.

It is very clear this is a shooting that shouldn't have happened in the first place -- in part because both men's instinct switched to Fight rather than to Flight.


Trayvon tried to avoid confrontation, his instinct was flight. Zimmerman kept stalking him, he was always looking for an altercation.

I do think Zimmerman should have gone to jail. That's just me.


He would have done if he was black and Trayvon was white.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:36 pm

If my memory is correct, the difference between Stand Your Ground and Castle Law is that Castle Law is only applicable in or on your own property (or property that you're leasing)?

If that is indeed the case, I would be a firm advocate for all Stand Your Ground states to switch to Castle Law, just to prevent shit like the Zimmerman/Martin shit from happening. Shoot someone in public and you should damned well go to jail, for public endangerment if nothing else - odds are that opening fire at someone in a situation where your hands are shaking due to an adrenaline rush, you're going to miss. And bullets don't just magically stop at the distance they should have hit what you were nominally aiming at.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:40 pm

Lieris wrote:Trayvon tried to avoid confrontation, his instinct was flight. Zimmerman kept stalking him, he was always looking for an altercation.


That's what I'm in part referring too. I think I'd have switched from Flight to Fight if I was getting harassed as well.



And now for the other side of the coin...
Ted 'I Poop my pants to avoid the draft' Nugent eloquently and calmly gives his opinion on the Zimmerman/Martin case: http://rare.us/story/nugent-zimmerman-v ... te=Unknown

PS. Yeah, it's as racist as you'd expect.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Lieris » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:44 pm

Fivelives wrote:If that is indeed the case, I would be a firm advocate for all Stand Your Ground states to switch to Castle Law, just to prevent shit like the Zimmerman/Martin shit from happening. Shoot someone in public and you should damned well go to jail, for public endangerment if nothing else - odds are that opening fire at someone in a situation where your hands are shaking due to an adrenaline rush, you're going to miss. And bullets don't just magically stop at the distance they should have hit what you were nominally aiming at.


The idea of civilians carrying firearms in public and playing policeman is simultaneously terrifying and insane to me (and nearly all Europeans for that matter).

Klaudandus wrote:And now for the other side of the coin...
Ted 'I Poop my pants to avoid the draft' Nugent eloquently and calmly gives his opinion on the Zimmerman/Martin case: http://rare.us/story/nugent-zimmerman-v ... te=Unknown

PS. Yeah, it's as racist as you'd expect.


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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:52 pm

Fivelives wrote:If my memory is correct, the difference between Stand Your Ground and Castle Law is that Castle Law is only applicable in or on your own property (or property that you're leasing)?


Pretty much. Several years ago, a local case had a guy shooting, and killing, a teenager after he and his friend broke into his house. There was a big stink about it but was acquitted in the end.

The kid had a record, the kid had a weapon (a knife) and had burglarized that house in the past.

The shooting happened inside his house.

That said, also in Texas, there was another case where a guy shot and killed another burglar but was declared guilty. The difference was that the shooting started inside the house, and the burglar was wounded, but fled. The owner chased after him and fired a shot that fatally wounded the burglar in the middle of the street after he had already left the property -- thus castle law not applying.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:02 pm

Lieris wrote:Zimmerman is a racist and a murderer and his supporters are cut from the same cloth as he is.


/facepalm

This is such a caricature of sloppy thinking I have a hard time believing it's not satire.
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