Avenging Wrath change

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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby ZorKesh » Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:35 am

Thels wrote:So, with a lower cooldown and generating a higher SotR uptime per use, HA clearly beats SW around.

Let's take into account this Trinket (lowers cooldown for "wings") and recent change of GC...

Can you calculate would HA better than SW under these conditions?
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Thels » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:48 am

It's a little tricky to include that trinket. I'm still not 100% sure how they calculate it.

If you're offtanking, you no longer get GC procs, so SW beats HA per use by less than a single HoPo. If you are tanking, and receive as few as 1 GC proc during HA, HA still beats SW per use.

Also, do keep in mind that while SW and HA both generate almost the same amount of HoPo, HA packs these together, so that you have 100% uptime for a while, even at 0% haste. SW at 0% haste will leave holes in your SotR uptime, unless you get a GC proc every six seconds. Without GC, you generate 25 HoPo. You want to generate 30 HoPo, so you need at least 20% haste to get 100% uptime without relying on GC procs.

With less than 20% haste (or with just above 20% haste, due to latency and what not), I would still highly recommend HA, as you'll be assured of a full uptime for a certain period of time. Keep in mind that for Challenge Modes, you're very likely to be in less than 20% haste.

Above 20% haste it's more of a personal thing. HA generates slightly more HoPo per use when tanking, while SW generates slightly more HoPo per use when not tanking. HA will of course be available more often, even with the trinket, so if you use it on CD, then it obviously wins. If you save it for certain periods, and SW has short enough CD to cover these periods as well, SW could win due to the extra healing received.
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Adeya » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:33 pm

Thels wrote:
daishan wrote:I'm not sure how to deal with GC procs but assume they should be equal for both talents.


They're not!

HA causes every AS+ to generate 3 HP, not 1 HP.

They still only generate 1 HP under SW. Also, we'll press CS less often, so we get less GC procs from there. (emphasis added) In addition, we only have 1 filler per 4 GCDs, rather than 4 fillers per 9 GCDs, so the chance that we're wasting GC procs from avoidance is quite realistic.

Without the GC procs, SW would net out very slightly in HoPo generation per use (HA would clearly win in total HoPo generation). With so much as a single GC proc under HW, or a single GC proc wasted to SW, HW wins out per use.


We don't get GC procs from using paladin abilities: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=85043 So I don't understand the remark that I've underlined in the quote.

Using AS when GC procs has the same effect upon the "rotation" while HA is in effect as it has upon the "rotation" while SW is in effect, so the only difference is the amount of HP that AS with GC generates during those respective conditions. If you're "wasting" GC procs during SW then you're "wasting" them during HA, too.

However, since AS+GC produces HP just as CS and J do, it is not a "filler". One can simply substitute AS for CS or for J at least while using HA (or DivPurp) and just substitute it for CS in the context of using SW. The paladin doesn't "lose" anything with respect to generating HP (whether with regard to the damage inflicted on the target). Your attitude appears to be that any event which interferes with the keypress pattern CS-J-X-CS-X-J-CS-X-X is bad for the paladin. There's nothing wrong with AS-J-X-CS-X-AS-CS-X-X, assuming that AS is used when GC procs, is there? It certainly seems to me that each GC proc makes AS an integral part of the "rotation" with respect to analyzing its effect on paladin strategy and tactics.

Of course that doesn't consider the healing received buff, which would make SW more valuable against Lei Shi.


We can always use more healing :-). But is there a particular reason for pointing to Lei Shi ( http://www.wowhead.com/npc=62983)??
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby theckhd » Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:50 pm

Adeya wrote:We don't get GC procs from using paladin abilities: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=85043 So I don't understand the remark that I've underlined in the quote.


You necro'ed a post that's over a year old. When that post was written, Grand Crusader worked differently than it does now. If you scroll down to the Changelog section of your wowhead link, you'll see that before September 9 2013, it still had a 12% chance to proc from CS or HotR.
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Adeya » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:15 am

theckhd wrote: You necro'ed a post that's over a year old. When that post was written, Grand Crusader worked differently than it does now. If you scroll down to the Changelog section of your wowhead link, you'll see that before September 9 2013, it still had a 12% chance to proc from CS or HotR.


Ouch! Nice catch. When I read the date, if memory serves, I thought it was this past July, not a year ago. Thanks for clearing that up. I've been wondering why Thels would say that, and looking in other places for a reference regarding CS generating a GC but not finding any .... (Memo to self: look at changelogs for abilities on Wowhead!!) Come to think of it, Wrathblood probably wrote something about that in his EJ article "5.4 - EF You" pertaining to the changes to which GC has been subjected during MoP.

Oh well. I'm not sure how I came to be reading this thread, frankly. Somehow it seems that I missed the first page, too. .....
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Thels » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:16 am

This is all going to be a moot point very soon as Sanctified Wrath is going to sleep with the fishes soon, but also keep in mind that Sanctified Wrath really tightens up your rotation, which means less chance to dump GC procs, which means more chance of wasting GC procs (receiving a proc while you still have the buff), so HA is still better on that regard.
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Adeya » Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:44 pm

So, what is replacing Sanctified Wrath as a Tier 5 Level 75 talent?
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Daeva001 » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:00 pm

The new Sanctified Wrath for Protection increases the damage of Holy Wrath by 100% and causes it to generate 1 Holy Power.

Also note that Holy Wrath was changed to hit much harder than it used to and the cooldown was increased to 15 seconds.
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