5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:27 am

Heck, it took an expansion pre-patch to remove Armor Penetration from gear, and that stat had only been on less than 12 months worth of gear.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Treck » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:29 am

daishan wrote:Not sure quite what you mean there, I just tried it again and I'm still getting heals from SoI while having the new BH glyph equipped.

Edit:
Most of the combat log looked something like
"Seal of Insight healed you for 0 (8,008 overheal)"
But there was some procs going to other random people despite me not been in a party or raid.


Battle healer glyph ARE (currently) healing the most injured player closeby, yourself included.
And GC isnt proccing from CS.
Im not getting mana back from SoI, but I am getting a lot of mana back, I think they stealthbuffed GbtL to 10% or smth already.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:31 am

Treck wrote:
daishan wrote:Not sure quite what you mean there, I just tried it again and I'm still getting heals from SoI while having the new BH glyph equipped.

Edit:
Most of the combat log looked something like
"Seal of Insight healed you for 0 (8,008 overheal)"
But there was some procs going to other random people despite me not been in a party or raid.


Battle healer glyph ARE (currently) healing the most injured player closeby, yourself included.
And GC isnt proccing from CS.
Im not getting mana back from SoI, but I am getting a lot of mana back, I think they stealthbuffed GbtL to 10% or smth already.

Lore said they'd try buffing GbtL to 10% and see how that number worked out.
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Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby daishan » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:40 am

Yep GbtL at 10% tho some rough maths from Theck and others on MMO show us needing 13-14% minimum to stop us ooming at high haste.

Might be better if they just let SoI give prot mana as buffing GbtL enough to keep us in mana might allow too much FoL casting on bosses like Lie Shen transitions.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Alrinea » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:45 am

Thels wrote:Do DPS always get their best secondary stat on their gear? Nope. Does DPS go screaming on the forums that Blizzard doesn't understand their class, just because their tier pieces aren't perfectly itemized?


tbh, they probably do scream on the forums :D at least in some capacity xD
the amount of useful stats for different roles is kinda surprising to me tbh. prot pallys have 6 stats (ignoring stamina here) they care about, guardians have 5, brewmasters have 5, and i think blood dks/warriors are also at 5 because they dont care about haste at all? all dps are also at 5, healers somehow are at 4 and get spirit pretty much guaranteed on every piece of gear, so its effectively 3 stats for them.
though i guess the relevant metric here would be "how bad is the worst stat that is intended for your class" rather than "how many stats are intended for your class" which is what blizzard is trying to fix atm.
also: GbtL at 15% would at least allow us to ressurect people faster :P currently its 6.xs casting, 20s waiting for mana
Last edited by Alrinea on Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:45 am

"Judgement of Wisdom: Judging an enemy target generates 1 holy power and grants you a buff, 10 second duration, that restores 4% mana per second" in addition to a slightly buffed GbtL.

Would avoid the whole "infinite mana so go cast FoL for 300k on everybody during downtime" while not actively fighting something, while letting us never go OOM when tanking or waiting to taunt.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby daishan » Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:09 am

Fetzie wrote:"Judgement of Wisdom: Judging an enemy target generates 1 holy power and grants you a buff, 10 second duration, that restores 4% mana per second" in addition to a slightly buffed GbtL.

Would avoid the whole "infinite mana so go cast FoL for 300k on everybody during downtime" while not actively fighting something, while letting us never go OOM when tanking or waiting to taunt.


Something like that would work for sure, just seems to me that as the SoI nerf wasn't aimed at prot the simplest fix is to just revert the change for prot, our mana return is nicely balanced atm so why fool around with it?
/shrug
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Promdates » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:13 am

Treck wrote:People are really going all up in arms cause their items doesnt have 100% perfect stat allocation


Every expansion, same shit. "My gear isn't optimal, it has crit on it and I want haste!" And then you end up with better itemized/optimized gear in the last raid tier than in the first... and people still complain! Savages in this town.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Alrinea » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:19 am

to be fair, i expect the BiS gear of the final tier of a expansion to be itemized perfectly. if not that gear, what gear then? not like it creates much of a balancing issue because if you have BiS gear you cleared everything. would just be a nice way by blizzard to say "good job, now enjoy your perfectly itemized gear till the next xpac hits"
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Koatanga » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:44 pm

Promdates wrote:
Treck wrote:People are really going all up in arms cause their items doesnt have 100% perfect stat allocation


Every expansion, same shit. "My gear isn't optimal, it has crit on it and I want haste!" And then you end up with better itemized/optimized gear in the last raid tier than in the first... and people still complain! Savages in this town.

We complain because the goalposts keep shifting. They implemented active mitigation for Paladins in such a way as to make haste stacking the most favourable way to go. That was our target so we got rid of our avoidance gear and went down the haste trail. Now they want avoidance gear to be attractive to us to the extent that they take away a part of our active HP generation and put it on passive abilities - contrary to the philosophy of active mitigation.

We're not upset because they don't give us 100% perfect stat allocation on our gear. That's a straw man argument, which is cheap and dismissive of the issue. What's "our gear" anyway - we can always get "someone else's gear" if it's better itemised for us. How many of us ran around Firelands with 2pc Prot and 2pc Ret tier gear because that combo was more fun?

We're upset that they keep shifting the underlying concept. Go haste, no wait - re-gear for avoidance. Mitigation should be active, but wait - now we want passive resource generation. Tank DPS isn't important, but we'll balance encounters assuming high tank DPS. Make up your freaking mind, Bliz.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Thels » Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:31 am

...

Did you calculate what effect this change has on you? If you were gearing for 50% haste, then that 50% haste would net you 1 SotR every 4 minutes less post 5.4. You're likely not at 50% haste yet, so it's more like 1 SotR every 5 or 6 minutes. Do you really think we should change our entire gearset, because it gives us 1 SotR less every 5-6 minutes? (And that's assuming we don't waste less GC procs than before. It is very likely we will waste less GC procs, which would make Haste post 5.4 practically on par with current haste.)

The Haste on your gear is NOT being nerfed. The Avoidance on your gear is being buffed slightly. It's only for the better. Haste will still be better than avoidance, but those tier pieces, cloak, or off-pieces that are handed to you are now a little more useful.

And how is it passive, really? We used to get GC procs on our CS strikes, which we were doing already. Now we're getting GC procs on avoidance, which will occur randomly. If at all, the new method is slightly more engaging, as we can get the GC procs at random times. We still have to actively press AS to use the GC proc, and then actively press SotR to use the HoPo we gained from that. That's quite far from passive mitigation, if you ask me.

If only people could stop thinking like the sky is coming down, and start realizing these changes are actually quite good.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Koatanga » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:59 am

Thels wrote:And how is it passive, really? We used to get GC procs on our CS strikes, which we were doing already. Now we're getting GC procs on avoidance, which will occur randomly. If at all, the new method is slightly more engaging, as we can get the GC procs at random times. We still have to actively press AS to use the GC proc, and then actively press SotR to use the HoPo we gained from that. That's quite far from passive mitigation, if you ask me.

If we maintain a proper rotation, we're rewarded with more GC procs than if we don't, currently. After 5.4, there's nothing we can do to earn GC procs. They happen passively. Can't you see how that is passive instead of active?

If only people could stop thinking like the sky is coming down, and start realizing these changes are actually quite good.
Again a straw man. I generally detest logical fallacies, but when you pretend the opposition is getting all emotional about something just because we don't like it, it's particularly annoying and it's really a cheap tactic. The sky isn't falling, and no one here is suggesting it is.

We are just getting a nerf, regardless of how small you make it out to be, but I don't like us getting a nerf of any kind. Not while there are Monks out there doing far more DPS with seemingly endless threat and the ability to gen snap aggro on groups even at range. When do we get to see those things instead of nerfs?
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Thels » Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:48 pm

Koatanga wrote:If we maintain a proper rotation, we're rewarded with more GC procs than if we don't, currently. After 5.4, there's nothing we can do to earn GC procs. They happen passively. Can't you see how that is passive instead of active?


Except that we're not maintaining our proper rotation to earn GC procs. We maintain our proper rotation because those abilities themselves generate HoPo. So now we get GC procs from avoidance rather than from the rotation we were already generating. That really doesn't change anything.

Koatanga wrote:Again a straw man. I generally detest logical fallacies, but when you pretend the opposition is getting all emotional about something just because we don't like it, it's particularly annoying and it's really a cheap tactic. The sky isn't falling, and no one here is suggesting it is.

We are just getting a nerf, regardless of how small you make it out to be, but I don't like us getting a nerf of any kind. Not while there are Monks out there doing far more DPS with seemingly endless threat and the ability to gen snap aggro on groups even at range. When do we get to see those things instead of nerfs?


A straw man, how? I actually bothered to calculate what the effect would be, rather than screaming "Haste is going to give less HoPo now, Blizzard hates us!".

Also, it might not even be a nerf to our gain from haste. Haste itself might cause less GC procs, but it still gives more filler room to use the GC procs that we gain from avoidance, preventing us from wasting procs.

Also, even if it is a nerf to haste, it's still not a nerf to our overall class.

Also, Monks are getting nerfed.

Users: We don't like all this avoidance.
Blizzard: We'll make all that avoidance that you have a little more useful.
Users: Why do you hate us, Blizzard?
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Koatanga » Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:18 pm

Thels wrote:Thels: We don't like all this avoidance.
Blizzard: We'll make all that avoidance that you have a little more useful, but we're going to take it away from somewhere else and make the net result a loss in DPS particularly when you are not the targeted tank.
Thels: Oh thank you, kind and benevolent overlords for we like buffs to stats we purposefully avoid while getting nerfs to our DPS, because DPS is never important in beating enrage timers! Thank you so much!


Fixed.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Sagara » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:18 am

Koatanga wrote:
Thels wrote:Thels: We don't like all this avoidance.
Blizzard: We'll make all that avoidance that you have a little more useful, but we're going to take it away from somewhere else and make the net result a loss in DPS particularly when you are not the targeted tank.
Thels: Oh thank you, kind and benevolent overlords for we like buffs to stats we purposefully avoid while getting nerfs to our DPS, because DPS is never important in beating enrage timers! Thank you so much!


Fixed.


Wait, what was that about strawmen just 5 posts ago?
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