5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby daishan » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:39 am

Sagara wrote:EDIT: Also, just dared to try and read the non-Lore posts.

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Haha, your not wrong, I often wish I could post on the US forums then realise it's probably for the best that I can't as my ramblings wouldn't be able to stand against the stupid :roll:

As for the GC change I'm not too worried about it, on most tank switch fights it'll be a dps loss I'd think but nothing to bad.
I'm more concerned about it been OP on add fights leading to them nerfing our dps to compensate.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Sagara » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:48 am

Or, like others mentionned, an ICD of some description.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Alrinea » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:55 am

i had to put up with a fellow prot pally in my guild that took EF and permanently tried to convince me to swap to it over SS for 2 months and wouldnt listen or even go read the countless articles on the subject. so happy i dont have to put up with that anymore.

as for the ptr:
i'm not sure there is any reasonable amount they could buff the GC proc rate on avoidance to that would make avoidance something we like. what it comes down to (and what blizzard does not seem to understand, which is surprisingly given that lore is there now and he knows) is: there are 6 secondary stats available to us atm (hit, exp, haste, mastery, dodge, parry). they will never be equally good for us. so there will always be a optimal way of gearing, thus we aim to only have the best 4 of them on our gear, thus every piece of gear with nr 5 or 6 on it will be considered as at least suboptimal.
the least i hope for in 5.4 is no gear with dodge AND parry on it, as that are pretty much the worst stats for most of the tanks currently.

also: in thecks metric posts i noticed that dodge and mastery are pretty similar in value which kinda surprised me. will be interesting to see where the crossovers there are, as far as amount of dodge on gear is concerned. cant wait for the simcraft implementation :D
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby daishan » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:07 am

Sagara wrote:Or, like others mentionned, an ICD of some description.


Hmmm not sure about giving it an ICD that seems to remove the best case scenarios but leave us with a chance to be screwed over by rng and get no procs.
If they do add an ICD to keep us from becoming op add tanks I'd like to see something that buffs our chances of a GC proc on tank switch and slow hitting bosses.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Sagara » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:09 am

Okay, once more, with feeling: Blizzard is not trying to make us love avoidance so much we'd replace every last piece of gear for us.

The point is: comparePuncture-Proof Greathelm with Crown of the Golden Golem. Which piece would you take? The correct answer, according to current common wisdom is - get this - the fucking Crown. Even worse? You're probably even better off using the NORMAL RET Helm.

The point is that you don't cry tears of blood when you see a Dodge/Parry piece drop in your raid. Or that 0.00001% of the Pallys tanks use the Dark Animus trinket (seriously, I don't think a single tank is using that thing for anything beyond the ilvl (EDIT: make that plate tanks, forgot about Druids and Monks for a second :-p)).
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby daishan » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:25 am

I'd take the Puncture Proof for hard hitting bosses due to the stam socket bonus :p

That DA tank trinket /facepalm unless I got the maths completely wrong I think it worked out to procing once per fight on average.....

I don't really mind the GC change I'm just worried about unintended consequences.


Off topic:- my pally co tank at the start of cata wasn't specced into Weakened Blows cos it was a "pvp talent" -.-
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:51 am

daishan wrote:
Sagara wrote:Or, like others mentionned, an ICD of some description.


Hmmm not sure about giving it an ICD that seems to remove the best case scenarios but leave us with a chance to be screwed over by rng and get no procs.
If they do add an ICD to keep us from becoming op add tanks I'd like to see something that buffs our chances of a GC proc on tank switch and slow hitting bosses.

Give it RPPM mechanics with RNG protection. ;) Just to give the theorycrafters and tooltip writers more of a headache.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Sagara » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:59 am

Meh. Let's just bite that bullet and accept a no proc risk like we do now. No point in trying to finagle every last little drop.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Alrinea » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:26 am

few new things popped up on mmo-champion
Qian-Le, Courage of Niuzao traded Dodge for Expertise.
Glyph of Devotion Aura (NYI) - Devotion Aura no longer affects party or raid members, but the cooldown is reduced by 0 sec.
Item - Paladin T16 Protection 2P Bonus While Guardian of Ancient Kings is active, 200% of the damage taken is converted into a heal over time that activates when Guardian of Ancient Kings fades.

was hoping for a second the change was blizz giving us less avoidance - but nope, its the agi cloak.
on the topic of useful glyphs there seems to be hope though - a glyph turning devotion aura into a personal cooldown (20% magic damage, say 30s cd as its only 6s duration) might be awesome, depending on the boss in question ofc.
with the doubled t16 2pc it should probably be worth it to wear 2 pieces with acceptable itemization, if there is a boss that has a constant high damage output
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby daishan » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:18 pm

Just bashed a dummy on the ptr for a few min, I was receiving SoI heals with and without the new BH glyph equipped.
Should make it usable on some bosses maybe even too strong on some fights considering that SoI heals for 2 to 3 times as much as the current BH glyph.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Fetzie » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:37 pm

Alrinea wrote:few new things popped up on mmo-champion
Qian-Le, Courage of Niuzao traded Dodge for Expertise.
Glyph of Devotion Aura (NYI) - Devotion Aura no longer affects party or raid members, but the cooldown is reduced by 0 sec.
Item - Paladin T16 Protection 2P Bonus While Guardian of Ancient Kings is active, 200% of the damage taken is converted into a heal over time that activates when Guardian of Ancient Kings fades.

was hoping for a second the change was blizz giving us less avoidance - but nope, its the agi cloak.
on the topic of useful glyphs there seems to be hope though - a glyph turning devotion aura into a personal cooldown (20% magic damage, say 30s cd as its only 6s duration) might be awesome, depending on the boss in question ofc.
with the doubled t16 2pc it should probably be worth it to wear 2 pieces with acceptable itemization, if there is a boss that has a constant high damage output


A 30 second cooldown would be crazy OP in PvP though. Imagine a paladin healer than can push out 2-4 divine light or 5+ flash of light heal bombs and cannot be interrupted or silenced. Every 30 seconds.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Schroom » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:21 pm

daishan wrote:Just bashed a dummy on the PTR for a few min, I was receiving SoI heals with and without the new BH glyph equipped.
Should make it usable on some bosses maybe even too strong on some fights considering that SoI heals for 2 to 3 times as much as the current BH glyph.



yeah, well I quickly hoped over to the PTR (Brill) yesterday night, to prepare for today's raid testing, and I got no heals from it (being at 100% and being a tank, I shouldn't be the most injured around me in the city :P so this works as the patchnotes describe!)... although, I still got mana from SoI and GC proccs on the dummy.... Soooo I guess not everything is yet implemented....
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby daishan » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:35 pm

Schroom wrote:yeah, well I quickly hoped over to the PTR (Brill) yesterday night, to prepare for today's raid testing, and I got no heals from it (being at 100% and being a tank, I shouldn't be the most injured around me in the city :P so this works as the patchnotes describe!)... although, I still got mana from SoI and GC proccs on the dummy.... Soooo I guess not everything is yet implemented....


Not sure quite what you mean there, I just tried it again and I'm still getting heals from SoI while having the new BH glyph equipped.

Edit:
Most of the combat log looked something like
"Seal of Insight healed you for 0 (8,008 overheal)"
But there was some procs going to other random people despite me not been in a party or raid.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Thels » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:38 am

Alrinea wrote:i'm not sure there is any reasonable amount they could buff the GC proc rate on avoidance to that would make avoidance something we like. what it comes down to (and what blizzard does not seem to understand, which is surprisingly given that lore is there now and he knows) is: there are 6 secondary stats available to us atm (hit, exp, haste, mastery, dodge, parry). they will never be equally good for us. so there will always be a optimal way of gearing, thus we aim to only have the best 4 of them on our gear, thus every piece of gear with nr 5 or 6 on it will be considered as at least suboptimal.


I don't think at this moment their goal is to make avoidance the best secondary stat out there. Their goal is to make avoidance at least somewhat useful and compatible. Haste will still be the better stat of the two, but you're now being less penalized for having Dodge and Parry on your gear instead of Haste, be it because you don't know that Haste is the best stat, because your raid is full on Plate DPS that have prio on the gear, or because you want the tanking cloak and tier pieces.

This is not "OMG Haste must burn, everyone must use avoidance". This is "Tanks are still forced to wear avoidance in at least some slots. Let's move some of the AM from Haste to Avoidance to help them out."

Do DPS always get their best secondary stat on their gear? Nope. Does DPS go screaming on the forums that Blizzard doesn't understand their class, just because their tier pieces aren't perfectly itemized?
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Treck » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:22 am

Like Thels mentioned, Their intent is to make dodge/parry gear (that will still be on our gear next tier) not leave such a bad taste in your mouth.
Also, People are really going all up in arms cause their items doesnt have 100% perfect stat allocation, i mean Cmon... this is something we have always had issues with, and now we can get much better itemization (more items to choose from) to actually manage to be close.
I guess thats why people are so upset about it, when your gear could only reach like 30% perfect itemization, people didnt mind, but now that we can reach 90%, people complaing about those last 10%...

Like Theck mentioned, its to much of an overhaul to change all tanking gear in the game to have it fixed in a patch.
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