5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Thels » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:20 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:The "instead" implies it will never target the paladin.


Myeah, that could be read in several ways. Instead of always healing the paladin, it will heal whoever most requires it.

Either way, we shouldn't blindly believe the tooltip, but test it. If it still affects the paladin if so required, it might actually be a good glyph. If it doesn't, then I don't think many will keep it.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby theckhd » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:08 pm

Until we get on PTR and test some of these things, it's a bit premature to make any concrete statements. My guess is that GoBH is gone as a heroic content glyph though.

As far as Grand Crusader and haste, I don't think this will devalue haste enough to make it worse than anything else (nor should it buff dodge/parry enough to push them ahead of anything else). It's probably just a simple way to weaken haste slightly and buff dodge/parry slightly to round out this final tier. Sort of a "we know you're going to have some of these stats on gear, so we'll try and make them a little more useful to you."
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Schroom » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:55 pm

the thing I don't get, they tried out this change of GC already on the 5.3 PTR and reverted it to the actual state, because it wasn't good. I mean, no GC proccs while offtanking? *Zzzzzzzzz*

the fact that the change to SoI would give us Mana problems regardless if we go haste or avoidance, is quite of concerning, but if that's true it is just broken. and we would need a Buff to "guarded by the light" to compensate for it.

also I am not quite sure GoBH would be a nono for HM content. If I check my logs, the SoI selfheal ticks are less then Battle healer heals, and only about 30% bigger. But, SoI is about 70% overhealing, whereas Battle healer is only 20%.

I guess it will highly depend on the fight. and needs communication with your healers if they want it, and what the price is.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Treck » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:51 am

Schroom wrote:the thing I don't get, they tried out this change of GC already on the 5.3 PTR and reverted it to the actual state, because it wasn't good. I mean, no GC proccs while offtanking? *Zzzzzzzzz*

They tried this in 5.3 PTR yes, but it was simply to big of a change going from only proccing on CS/Hammer, to only dodge/parry, atleast now its a small one (cmon 12% chance to procc in the beginning isnt much)
Who cares about no GC proccs when not tanking? you dont need the Holy power anyway, and odds are your Vengeance is to low to be doing any real DPS anyway.

Schroom wrote:the fact that the change to SoI would give us Mana problems regardless if we go haste or avoidance, is quite of concerning, but if that's true it is just broken. and we would need a Buff to "guarded by the light" to compensate for it.

I dont understand how people are freaking out on this...
This is CLEARLY a holy paladin change that isnt suppose to change protpaladins, their intent is NOT to make protpallys only usefull the first 30sec of the fight and then completely useless, to remove all protpaladins from the game.
Its not a big issue, we never ran into mana problems in the beginning of MoP when we were using SoT, Rets doesnt run into mana issues and they dont use SoI to regen mana back.
Get real, its not going to be an issue, and if it will, they will for sure bugg guarded by the light to compensate.



Schroom wrote:also I am not quite sure GoBH would be a nono for HM content. If I check my logs, the SoI selfheal ticks are less then Battle healer heals, and only about 30% bigger. But, SoI is about 70% overhealing, whereas Battle healer is only 20%.

I guess it will highly depend on the fight. and needs communication with your healers if they want it, and what the price is.

I agree here unlike Theck, but its simply just going to dependon the fights.
Saying its gone for heroic content is a bit to harsh, but It will likely not be a glyph we start out with, but rather swap into if raidhealing is harsh while tank healing isnt.
What it will likely do is that it will focus more attention on the tank than the raid from one healer (the days of having 2 of your healing team focus on the tank alone is pretty gone) and that sort of works against the glyph i guess since he is doing more tank healing than raid healing, that said depending on the class, that could end up pretty ok.
I like this glyph more tho, the current version is to brainless and mandatory to be using, this version will be interesting, and we have far less interesting glyphs that we should complain about first anyway :P
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Schroom » Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:37 am

Treck wrote:I dont understand how people are freaking out on this...


I couldn't test it myself yet. I am just referring to Daishans post earlier in this thread, where he claims going oom after about 30 seconds.... IF (and only IF) that is really the case, it will be concern, a big one.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby pvita » Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:38 am

I do not expect mana problems, but on the second side it would be nice if mana was a real resource again. We just watch pool of 5 HoPos now, mana bar is totally irrelevant. Devs should look into it and make both mana and HoPos relevant in rotation.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:47 am

Schroom wrote:
Treck wrote:I dont understand how people are freaking out on this...


I couldn't test it myself yet. I am just referring to Daishans post earlier in this thread, where he claims going oom after about 30 seconds.... IF (and only IF) that is really the case, it will be concern, a big one.

The math was a little wrong and it's actually 4-5 minutes until oom... but the blues have said they're increasing GBTL to 10% mana regen.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby pvita » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:16 am

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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Sagara » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:29 am

and the next post, which is just as important

EDIT: Also, just dared to try and read the non-Lore posts.

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Last edited by Sagara on Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby daishan » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:32 am

Ye mana won't be an issue now they're buffing GBTL.

I was maybe exaggerating a little when I said 30-40 sec but I've no idea how you can keep your rotation up for 4-5 min with 40% or more haste, don't forget AS is one of our biggest cost spells so a string of GC procs while add tanking a taunt or 2 and we'd of been going oom pretty fast.

I really can't decide about the BH glyph if it never heals the pally even if they're the lowest health player in range I think it'll be very situational, as most of the fights in ToT at least, where I would of been tempted to use such a glyph have a heavy tank dmg phase.
If it heals the lowest health player including the tank it could be tempting on several fights but even then if I understand Thecks blogs correctly SoI procs even when they happen while we're at higher hp help to reduce spikes a fair bit.

Has anyone gone on the ptr yet to check which way BH works now?
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Treck » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:24 am

Schroom wrote:
Treck wrote:I dont understand how people are freaking out on this...


I couldn't test it myself yet. I am just referring to Daishans post earlier in this thread, where he claims going oom after about 30 seconds.... IF (and only IF) that is really the case, it will be concern, a big one.

Ofcourse they would buff it, there is no possible way ever that they would make us go oom every now and then in the fight without either buffing some way of us getting mana back.
Did people think it was a way for them to dicourage going for haste so you dont use up your mana?...
I think a lot of Haste paladins are really on the edge at all times hoping not to get nerfed cause while its fun to play, its also incredibly overpowered atm compared to some other classes, that the very thought about nerfing haste or making another gearing strat better is making their world collapse.

Still what Im refering to is the people freaking out saying "OMG YOU CANT DO THIS TO US!!!" when theres a change that is CLEARLY not intended for us, rather than saying "The mana back from SoI is usefull for us and we could still use it".
(this wasnt direclty targeted against you either, I just read to many people complaining about it before I saw this topic, so I unloaded all here, im sorry)
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Schroom » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:50 am

that's ok ^^

I just read it here for the first time. (the German com is pretty dead on the advanced stuff, I actually still get a lot of comments like "why do you wear hastegems, and have hit/exp (hard)cap? o.O"), and actually I thought of it as being rather funny implementing it like that on PTR, than being worried.

As I suspected they will buff GBTL which makes it absolutely ok on my side.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Treck » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:03 am

Schroom wrote:I just read it here for the first time. (the German com is pretty dead on the advanced stuff, I actually still get a lot of comments like "why do you wear hastegems, and have hit/exp (hard)cap? o.O"), and actually I thought of it as being rather funny implementing it like that on PTR, than being worried.

That is actually very true, there is a suprisingly large ammount of people who doesnt even know what haste does to them, or why you would go for hit/exp caps, and i guess they are very very casual (cause if you actually google any question you have, im sure its actually answered), so they are so casual they dont even bother looking up information, not to mention ask someone else?
I guess they just asked tho if you are getting such a question.

But then someone tweets Lore this : "@devolore @Warcraft Mentions haste a lot. Never did get why Protection Paladins wanted haste. I've always gone avoidance" also note that the guy goes for Eternal Flame over SS.
You are playing the game active enough to seek out the Community managers of the game, and maybe someone watching his show before Lore started working for blizzard, but you dont know Why people go for haste!?
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Schroom » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:17 am

oh yeah, the classics :) A friend and a me, actually started looking up pally tanks in LFR and make a "best off" in gearing and play fails.

from never using SoTR to tanking all the time with SoR instead of SoI, wearing full avoidance gear w/o hit/exp caps, using EF, (I even once had a pally tank who gemmed full crit!) we saw everything.

nicely "/w" ing if one could help with the class or game only about 10% actually said yes and where glad being helped...

20% ignored

the rest answered with flames, giving us a wild card, so we would make fun of them. (tragically I also whitnessed protpaladins being kicked from LFR bcause they went full haste and did everything correctly, only because non Paladins thought it was wrong, gemming haste :'((( )
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Fenrìr » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:22 am

I always look at paladin tanks in LFR, especially the ones who state they're new to tanking and offer some advice. I get a negative reaction more than I care to know, but I always try to help a bit.
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