5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

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5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Alrinea » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:52 am

Grand Crusader no longer has a chance to activate from Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous, but now has a 30% chance to activate when dodging or parrying a melee attack (up from 12%).


guess this brings this post by theck back to relevance, and obviously devalues haste :(
consequently, i do not expect T16 to have any amount of haste on it.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Sturrm » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:22 am

Im new here, but three things:

1. Yes, it will devalue haste... but with 5.4 gear letting us reach 50% haste, I doubt itll be an issue.

2. If they are once again pushing paladins to Dodge/Parry, they should add the buff they gave warriors and DKs, to make our DPS competitive.
Riposte is a new passive ability learned by Protection Warriors at level 76. When the Warrior dodges or parries any attack, they gain 50% of their Parry and Dodge as an additional bonus to Critical Strike for 20 seconds.



3. Might not be the thread to discuss this, but... what does the change to Seal of Insight and Glyph of Battle Healer mean to us?

General
Seal of Insight no longer has a chance to restore mana on attacks.
Glyphs
Glyph of Battle Healer has been redesigned. The glyph now causes Seal of Insight to heal the most wounded raid or party member instead of the Paladin.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Alrinea » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:37 am

the mana change is irrelevant for us, the only time we actually need mana is to ressurect people.
the Battle Healer redesign now causes us to lose survivability when we use the glyph for some mediocre raidheals, so it went from OP in 5.0 to meh in 5.2 to actively bad in 5.4. we are kinda running out of useful major glphs tbh.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby daishan » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:52 am

Alrinea wrote:the mana change is irrelevant for us, the only time we actually need mana is to ressurect people.


Sure about that?

At high haste levels we'll run oom very fast even without using taunts, interrupts, DP, hand spells ect.
I'm at 46% haste and switching to SoT runs me oom in 30-40sec doing a normal rotation, I think even at 0% haste we'd run oom in under 90 sec if we're doing more than just our standard rotation.
Last edited by daishan on Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Sturrm » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:53 am

How is it mediocre in 5.2? I solo tank Iron Qon in Heroic and end up healing almost as much as our other healers. Same for Heroic Tortos. Yes, going from 30% of damage dealt to 20% of damage dealt was bad... but its still quite powerful, unless im missing something.

Right now, Glyph of the Battle healer is:
Using melee attacks while using Seal of Insight heals a nearby injured friendly target, excluding the Paladin, within 30 yards for 20% of damage dealt.


The redesign seems to just make it smarter?
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby daishan » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:57 am

Sturrm wrote:The redesign seems to just make it smarter?


Not really.

On live we get self healing from SoI PLUS raid healing with BH.
The PTR removes the 20% of melee dmg is converted to raid healing.
Instead SoI procs either heal us when we don't have BH glyph or heal everyone EXCEPT us when we use the glyph.

Edit:

Alrinea is kind of right about the current BH raid healing been mostly mediocre except for a few fights like Tortos HM (very little over heal), Last phase of Iron Qon , and Ra-Den.
I think the new version could be very strong raid healing if we can afford the personal survivability loss, because SoI procs at least for me tend to do 3 times as much raw healing as the current BH does.

Having said that it'll be very situational if it goes live how it is, I can't really think of a fight in ToT where I'd of been comfortable loosing personal survivability even for the quite strong SoI raid healing during prog.
Last edited by daishan on Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Alrinea » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:07 am

was just on a target dummy, lost about 10% my mana over 70s with standard rotation at 33% haste. 7% of that would be mitigated by replenishment in a raid. so not sure its as big of a problem at medium haste levels, cant say much about 50% haste as i only have 4 items with haste on them currently.
but yeah, hadnt expected this to actually be the case, if blizz makes high haste levels not sustainable i'll be pretty upset tbh.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Sturrm » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:15 am

daishan wrote:
Sturrm wrote:The redesign seems to just make it smarter?


Not really.

On live we get self healing from SoI PLUS raid healing with BH.
The PTR removes the 20% of melee dmg is converted to raid healing.
Instead SoI procs either heal us when we don't have BH glyph or heal everyone EXCEPT us when we use the glyph.

Edit:

Alrinea is kind of right about the current BH raid healing been mostly mediocre except for a few fights like Tortos HM (very little over heal), Last phase of Iron Qon , and Ra-Den.
I think the new version could be very strong raid healing if we can afford the personal survivability loss, because SoI procs at least for me tend to do 3 times as much raw healing as the current BH does.

Having said that it'll be very situational if it goes live how it is, I can't really think of a fight in ToT where I'd of been comfortable loosing personal survivability even for the quite strong SoI raid healing during prog.



What Glyph or Seal do you use that gives you more survivability? I dont see how/when we lose personal survivability by currently going with SOI + Glyph of the Battle Healer.
Last edited by Sturrm on Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby lifeonmars » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:16 am

Alrinea wrote:was just on a target dummy, lost about 10% my mana over 70s with standard rotation at 33% haste. 7% of that would be mitigated by replenishment in a raid. so not sure its as big of a problem at medium haste levels, cant say much about 50% haste as i only have 4 items with haste on them currently.
but yeah, hadnt expected this to actually be the case, if blizz makes high haste levels not sustainable i'll be pretty upset tbh.


Replenishment doesn't exist anymore.

I have a hard time imagining that the SoI change is actually an indirect nerf to make haste builds non-viable, because that's way too subtle for their track record, and even non-haste pally tanks are not going to want to use Rebuke anymore because they'll never recover from it. Also, the AS from GC is not free, so the SoI change potentially could even oom all those nice avoidance-stacking paladins out there (all zero of them playing serious content!).
Last edited by lifeonmars on Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby daishan » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:22 am

Sturrm wrote:What Glyph or Seal do you use that gives you more survivability? I dont see how/when we lose personal survivability by currently going with SOI + Glyph of the Battle Healer.


Glyph of Battle Healer has been redesigned. The glyph now causes Seal of Insight to heal the most wounded raid or party member instead of the Paladin.

I was trying to point out how the new glyph doesn't just make it smarter but stops SoI from healing the tank.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Thels » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:26 am

Sturrm wrote:What Glyph or Seal do you use that gives you more survivability? I dont see how/when we lose personal survivability by currently going with SOI + Glyph of the Battle Healer.


It's not another Glyph, it's the Glyph itself nerfing our survivability.

Right now, SoI heals yourself. BH heals others, in addition to the selfheals, so it's free extra healing. The 5.4 Glyph will redirect the SoI heal to others, so you'll heal others instead of yourself.

What I wonder is, will you still heal yourself with SoI+BH, if you yourself are most in need of that heal? If that's the case, I might still consider running it. If it will never heal myself anymore, then it'll get replaced for sure.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby daishan » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:39 am

Thels wrote:What I wonder is, will you still heal yourself with SoI+BH, if you yourself are most in need of that heal? If that's the case, I might still consider running it. If it will never heal myself anymore, then it'll get replaced for sure.


That's a good point I was just assuming it wouldn't heal us but i guess it could mean either.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:32 am

The "instead" implies it will never target the paladin.

I am torn. On the one hand, yay smartheals. On the other hand, no self healing? What the fuck?!
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Flex » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:50 am

Sturrm wrote:2. If they are once again pushing paladins to Dodge/Parry, they should add the buff they gave warriors and DKs, to make our DPS competitive.


Only evidence of tank DPS I see is that 1) Brewmasters do too much and 2) Warriors and DKs do too little. Don't see anything that Paladins are in anyway bad at tank DPS.
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Re: 5.4 Grand Crusader Change (PTR)

Postby Promdates » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:06 pm

Sounds good then, since they're nerfing Keg Smash by 18%.
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