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Post your Frustrations.

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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Worldie » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:51 am

They already hotfixed crits not giving vengeance.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby benebarba » Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:53 pm

Vigilant wrote:It's an interesting phenomenon. I was just reading this thread over on MMO-Champion, in which it seems that a good number of tanks now find the most enjoyable part of tanking doing tons of damage and would quit tanking if that aspect of tanking were nerfed.



I sometimes wonder what the 'vision' for what a 'tank' and a 'healer' are compared to a DPS. In other words, are players damage-dealers first with other stuff tossed on to let them do things like heal or tank, or are they a pile of heals and defensive cooldowns/mob management abilities that gets a bit of damage tossed on because people gotta be able to quest. How you view what the roles are based on greatly influences what seems like a 'good idea' in spec design (this is really apparent I think in more open-ended RPGs like the older pen & paper games).

I think there's a lot of reasons why the DPS model (my bigger numbers are immediately obvious and make things die faster) is appealing to players. For the case of paladins, I feel like the massive change in how we gear resulting in a very different (more dynamic) style of play also has probably made people like it more. After all, the new tank spec they decided to introduce wasn't a rigid rotation based spec ;) ... heck, it wasn't even based on the idea of a meatshield. I feel like they even tried to make the 'hybrid damage-healer' possible with some of the mistweaver abilities.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Orthien » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:28 pm

I think vengeance is just a bandaid that was never put on quite right and has sat there far to long.
Its time for Bliz to hold their breath, rip it off and take a look at how to properly deal with the wound.
If they want to go along the current route where threat doesn't matter then just have it not matter ever, tidy up those AoE burst pulls while at it.

My preferance is to make threat important again and do so in a way that gets rid of vengeance and its gimicks, brings back viable solo tank play and keeps our damage strong without hitting the OP numbers that max vengeance provides.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Teranoid » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:40 pm

Another week of 1 runestone by default. This shit is getting reaaaaaalllly old.

The worst part is for a little while I actually entertained the idea of maybe getting this on my main alt. Fuck that.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Worldie » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:54 pm

Orthien wrote:My preferance is to make threat important again and do so in a way that gets rid of vengeance and its gimicks, brings back viable solo tank play and keeps our damage strong without hitting the OP numbers that max vengeance provides.

Thing is tank solotank more or less never was viable. Vengeance didn't help either: you still have no vengeance and do pretty much no single target damage.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby benebarba » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:08 pm

Worldie wrote:
Orthien wrote:My preferance is to make threat important again and do so in a way that gets rid of vengeance and its gimicks, brings back viable solo tank play and keeps our damage strong without hitting the OP numbers that max vengeance provides.

Thing is tank solotank more or less never was viable. Vengeance didn't help either: you still have no vengeance and do pretty much no single target damage.


yeah, about the best you can do is round up a pile of mobs (good luck if you are in a high-traffic area), and even then it seems like most of the DPS specs are still significantly faster. So 'viable' in as much as 'you do better than a healer', but not 'almost as fast as a DPS spec'. The high-health solo fights in MoP I think made this discrepancy even more glaring... trying to chew through 2.5 M health as a freshly dinged 90 prot pally in 5.0 kinda sucked (recently revisited this with a poorly geared brewmaster). At least with 'kill X Y's' quests you could round up and burn.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:20 pm

benebarba wrote:
Worldie wrote:
Orthien wrote:My preferance is to make threat important again and do so in a way that gets rid of vengeance and its gimicks, brings back viable solo tank play and keeps our damage strong without hitting the OP numbers that max vengeance provides.

Thing is tank solotank more or less never was viable. Vengeance didn't help either: you still have no vengeance and do pretty much no single target damage.


yeah, about the best you can do is round up a pile of mobs (good luck if you are in a high-traffic area), and even then it seems like most of the DPS specs are still significantly faster. So 'viable' in as much as 'you do better than a healer', but not 'almost as fast as a DPS spec'. The high-health solo fights in MoP I think made this discrepancy even more glaring... trying to chew through 2.5 M health as a freshly dinged 90 prot pally in 5.0 kinda sucked (recently revisited this with a poorly geared brewmaster). At least with 'kill X Y's' quests you could round up and burn.

Doing the guy that drops the lightning steel quest item on my freshly dinged blood dk took me... many minutes. Even with army.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Cema » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:42 am

Worldie wrote:Why exactly would someone refuse the strongest tank cd in game, so strong it had been whined about and nerfed to the ground in WotLK. You remember it? Being able to not use your cooldowns cause "in case I'd die, AD will save me", so you could save them for when AD was already procced.

WHY. For what, 1k haste that you don't even need in SoO gear, and a proc that does shit damage in a ST fight?

Oh but who cares, let's all blame the healers if we die while we're doing so much dps. Ok.



I have the very same feeling. I tried to explain it to a bunch of other french tanks

1st : a dps proc can be replaced by just "more dps" while a cheat death every minute can sometimes change a strategy

2nd : cheat death on tanks during progress is extremely interesting. It can transform all these "tank is dead raid is dead" wipes into valuable tries that last one or two more minutes

There is nothing more annoying than a tank who dies all the time. I have been tanking for 6 years before stopping the game and I can tell that when raid leaders who usually deal with a very solid tank have to switch to something made of paper they go mad very quickly.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby bldavis » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:12 pm

the point of a tank is to take a beating and be able to survive it long enough for your healers to heal you for the next one

if a cheat death think is possible, that is the definition of what a tank is for...

dps procs just help kill the boss faster, but the boss aint gonna die without someone to beat on so they arent beating on your dps and healers
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Worldie » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:29 pm

I'm satisfied that after talking more with our tanks (and "maybe" with less brutal tones) they both came to reason and agreed if tank death is a danger they'll swiftly invest 10k gold (or whatever the price is going to be) in the tank one.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Teranoid » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:12 pm

I must be a colossal idiot because no matter how many guides I read on Simcraft I cannot wrap my feeble mind around it.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Nooska » Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:11 am

^Simcraft is not for the uninitiated (and the guides don't help tbh)
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Fetzie » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:38 am

I'm hoping that Theck's upcoming "how-to" for the paladin sim is usable by newbies. Haven't really ever used simcraft, no real reason to as a tank or healer.
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Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby theckhd » Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:04 am

It's intended to be. Of course, I have to write it first. But it'll basically go from "download the program" to "here's how to interpret the results" and everything in-between.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Nooska » Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:36 am

Thats whats needed (for all classes/specs) - looking forward to it :)
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Morosin, Bloody freezing orc death knight on Argent Dawn (EU)
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