Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby lythac » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:47 am

theckhd wrote:This proc lets you make one mistake per minute without penalty.


I'm thinking of boss swapping fights where it will be active for longer. Also it could help sub-par tanks/healers with poor communication/coordination on boss swapping fights. I'm actually unsure if that is a cause of death anymore or will be in the new raid. The cloak enchant seems to be a huge crutch for the less skilled when they hit a brick wall in progression, especially for 10 mans as it makes the transition from 3 to 2 healers easier.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby stevos » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:13 am

True, I was more thinking that the dots tend to hit pretty hard on the stack before you switch. That tends to be the point where tank deaths are most likely. Rather than at the point of the switch.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:20 am

Even there, buying healers that 1 second of extra time (between the killing dot tick and the following tick or melee attack) for their reflex to press guardian spirit, or to land that big healing touch, can turn a wipe into a kill.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Ironshield » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:59 am

When I die there are one of two things happening, either I'm going WTF was that?? oh that ability I forgot about or something similar in which case tank cloak FTW!!! Or I'm low on health for a bit longer than expected (healers are distracted) and I'm desperately spamming my WoG / Healthstone / LoH / AD keys to get something up but D'oh to late... in which cast tank cloak FTW!!!

Think of it like 1 free battle rez per minute without the need to rebuff or lose your food / elixir buffs. If more than one person dies the BR ALWAYS goes to Tank > Healer > DPS unless it's right at the end / or it's the other tank that died and I still have a bubble in the hole.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:01 am

As I said, people who don't realize how blatantly OP the tank cloak proc is, clearly didn't play Prot pala (or with one) at heroic level in WotLK.


For very, very many reasons WotLK was wayyyy too different of an era to try and compare this cloak to. If we'd in any way had the same toolkit that we have now to bring to bear on Heroic Lich King, it would have been an entirely different story.

When you actually think about it, a boss like Horridon makes H-LK look like an adorable kitten and Heroic Megaera makes Sarth look like a little whelp.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:10 am

Darielle wrote:
As I said, people who don't realize how blatantly OP the tank cloak proc is, clearly didn't play Prot pala (or with one) at heroic level in WotLK.


For very, very many reasons WotLK was wayyyy too different of an era to try and compare this cloak to. If we'd in any way had the same toolkit that we have now to bring to bear on Heroic Lich King, it would have been an entirely different story.


*MEEEEEP* The toolkits have changed, but unless I've jumped games in the interim, our core job is pretty much the same.
Seriously, with our current toolkit, HLK would have been vastly different as well - expect him to have Killing Blow from Ra-Den, for example.

If you had to actually evaluate its worth, this proc is a free I-don't-know-how-much stamina, once per minute, that occurs ONLY if you actually need it, without player input. So basically, a free metric fuckton of stamina.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:20 am

*MEEEEEP* The toolkits have changed, but unless I've jumped games in the interim, our core job is pretty much the same.
Seriously, with our current toolkit, HLK would have been vastly different as well - expect him to have Killing Blow from Ra-Den, for example.


The abilities are one thing, stuff like Fatal Strike can exist purely because of the way AM works, but that's not the only thing.

WotLK was an era where we literally only had one cd, and had to glyph Salv to gain access to another. The ability to even have a 1 min cooldown was so precious and valuable because it opened up so many options. WotLK AD wasn't just amazing from the new shiny automatic aspect of it, it was amazing because that it opened up situations those precious cooldowns could be held on to.

They're not quite so precious or scarce right now.
Last edited by Darielle on Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenris » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:21 am

Glyph of Scattered Thoughts (NYI) Your Scatter Shot no longer Disorients the target, but now interrupts their spellcasts, preventing any spells in the same school from being cast for 4 sec, and Scatter Shot's range is increased by 0 yards.

They are clearly messing with hunters on purpose now :D

The only thing i can think about it that makes sense is that they are going to remove silencing so you are forced to glyph for the interrupt (== one less CC,but SS still avaiable to every spec )
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:28 am

What I really don't realize about the cloak discussion, is why so many people feel so necessary to sacrifice such a strong passive cooldown, for a proc that will possibly be very minor for a tank, and some haste that you won't even need in SoS as people are already at or very close to 50% haste now.

If it was a extremely op dps cloak, like the meta gem is who accounts for even more than 10% total dps, I'd understand.
But this proc doesn't seemb anywhere as strong to warrant the loss of a passive safety net.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Darielle » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:34 am

What I really don't realize about the cloak discussion, is why so many people feel so necessary to sacrifice such a strong passive cooldown, for a proc that will possibly be very minor for a tank, and some haste that you won't even need in SoS as people are already at or very close to 50% haste now.

If it was a extremely op dps cloak, like the meta gem is who accounts for even more than 10% total dps, I'd understand.


I would say that people ARE expecting the cloak proc to be on par with Capacitance, and probably even assuming it would be better - given that it's the last chain of the legendary on the last patch of an expansion where Blizzard doesn't really hold back and for the damage proc to be as salivatory to damage as the tank proc is to us.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:44 am

I still also wonder what would happen if every tank hybrid in the raid wears the tank cloak to cheese mechanics, random thought.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:50 am

Well, in practice, couldn't *everyone* buy one? THe only one that might not be able to would be the clothies.

Actually, thinking about it, I'm wondering why THAT hasn't been discussed to hell and back? How many wipes could 25 ARDENT DEFENDERS ON A ONE MINUTE-CD save up?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Treck » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:53 am

Its much more than that.
comparing gem vs cloaks:
dps gem = reliable 7-10% dps increase
tank gem= unreliable (but still strong) cd, aka you cant count on it and should play as tho its not there and then you sort of take less dmg now and then.
Cloaks (STILL PTR NOT EVEN HOW THE PROCC WILL WORK IS FINALIZED, its all speculations so far)
dps=reliable dps increase (we still dont have any clue how strong this will be) and sorry to burst your bubble but I would say that 99% SoI WONT procc from it, even if it would it would be unreliable burst healing.
tank=reliable tank saver, even if you survive half a sec longer due to it, it might be enough to use your AM heals or other panic buttons that are off CD, No one is perfect and this proc makes you able to play recklessly as hell as a tank, then if it proccs you play safe for a minute.

I honestly cant understand people blindly going for the dps cloak (at this moment) cause we know how strong the tank procc is, while we have no clue about the dps versions strength other than 900 haste.
I bet all those will completely ignore the CD reduction trinket as well, cause its got icky stamina, and they never die anyway so using CDs more ofthen is useless, oh and 4p is such a waste of stats right?
Also, would there ever be any kind of "tank Cd procc" that would ever outshine the dps one? cause if I had to come up with an overpowered tank procc, this would be it.


This cloak will be bread and butter, and even freaking useless DKs with cloak will have higher survivability than a pallytank without it.
Unless you do content stupidly overgeared with insane healers and horrible dps, tank procc should be your choise.
Id take the freaking cloak if it gave 0stats, and people whine its got dodge and parry.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:58 am

Treck wrote:I honestly cant understand people blindly going for the dps cloak (at this moment)

Neither can I, my guild's tanks and officers yelled at me for having no clue about tanks work when I proposed them to use the tank cloak.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Treck » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:59 am

Sagara wrote:Well, in practice, couldn't *everyone* buy one? THe only one that might not be able to would be the clothies.

Actually, thinking about it, I'm wondering why THAT hasn't been discussed to hell and back? How many wipes could 25 ARDENT DEFENDERS ON A ONE MINUTE-CD save up?

Its a pretty big dps increase for the dpsers to use the tank cloaks on progess, its either going to be disabled if you are not in tank specc or have some limit to the absorb, but even there its good. but no pallytanks want that 900 haste cause they never die
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:07 am

Treck wrote:Its a pretty big dps increase for the dpsers to use the tank cloaks on progess, its either going to be disabled if you are not in tank specc or have some limit to the absorb, but even there its good. but no pallytanks want that 900 haste cause they never die


Emphasis mine - Wuh? Typo there Treck? Anyway, if it's not limited, I'm fulling expecting guilds like yours fieling a full array of tank cloaks (although the healing one seems huge on paper as well).

Pity though, I'd have LOVED to have the Tiger cloak + HT14 :-p
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:17 am

It's not a typo. If you can stand in shit or take a aoe to the face rather than having to move and run away, it's a quite huge DPS increase.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fetzie » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:57 am

Emphasis mine - Wuh? Typo there Treck?

There are so many fights when you can do more damage if you can stand still and nuke.

It would also be a massive healing reduction. Think about Lei Shen, if you can just tell everybody to stay away from each other for Static Shock regardless of them being a mage, paladin or whatever. That is 5-6 million damage that doesn't need healing up.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:55 am

Hmm. The Death Kngiht set has no skulls. (Still has horns, though.)
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Flex » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:44 am

Fenris wrote:
Glyph of Scattered Thoughts (NYI) Your Scatter Shot no longer Disorients the target, but now interrupts their spellcasts, preventing any spells in the same school from being cast for 4 sec, and Scatter Shot's range is increased by 0 yards.

They are clearly messing with hunters on purpose now :D

The only thing i can think about it that makes sense is that they are going to remove silencing so you are forced to glyph for the interrupt (== one less CC,but SS still avaiable to every spec )


SS moved baseline Marks, everyone can glyph for a non-silencing interrupt.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby halabar » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:29 am

Flex wrote:
Fenris wrote:
Glyph of Scattered Thoughts (NYI) Your Scatter Shot no longer Disorients the target, but now interrupts their spellcasts, preventing any spells in the same school from being cast for 4 sec, and Scatter Shot's range is increased by 0 yards.

They are clearly messing with hunters on purpose now :D

The only thing i can think about it that makes sense is that they are going to remove silencing so you are forced to glyph for the interrupt (== one less CC,but SS still avaiable to every spec )


SS moved baseline Marks, everyone can glyph for a non-silencing interrupt.


Yeah, that glyph is the band-aid to fix the screaming by BM that several pets would be untameable without a silence of some sort.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Fenrìr » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:34 am

Fixed an issue where Protection Warriors are unable to receive bonus loot upon defeating Ra-den.



Like really...only warriors?....
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Newsom » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:12 am

Fenrìr wrote:
Fixed an issue where Protection Warriors are unable to receive bonus loot upon defeating Ra-den.


Like really...only warriors?....


I hope they just worded the notes like that. Will see on Monday if he refuses me again I guess. xD
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:26 am

I have one guess.

Low pop realms will be merged with several other low pop realms. This would do very good to them as it has been asked for several years already. Economy, recruiting, pugging will all get a huge improvement on those realms. (Even though several AH goblins and bots will be sad)

What it hasn't been said however, is if people on the same virtual realm will actually appear near to each other like in CRZ. If they don't, which is what I hope, merging toghether a 99% horde with a 99% alliance realm wouldn't really do much.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby halabar » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:27 am

Worldie wrote:I have one guess.

Low pop realms will be merged with several other low pop realms. This would do very good to them as it has been asked for several years already. Economy, recruiting, pugging will all get a huge improvement on those realms. (Even though several AH goblins and bots will be sad)

What it hasn't been said however, is if people on the same virtual realm will actually appear near to each other like in CRZ. If they don't, which is what I hope, merging toghether a 99% horde with a 99% alliance realm wouldn't really do much.


I for one, am looking forward to the AH chaos. I'm really hoping that they announce the merger list prior to the patch, as that will allow for all sorts of profiteering. Crafters are generally gonna get hosed. I've been seeing a rise in bots again, so we'll have to see what happens there.

TUMJ is gonna be a mess for a while. I imagine they will have to merge servers there or something.

I do hope they merge highly imbalanced realms.
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