Avenging Wrath change

How to get started.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, lythac

Avenging Wrath change

Postby Schroom » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:20 am

Sanctified Wrath

Protection: Now causes Judgment to generate 2 Holy Power instead of 1 while Avenging Wrath is active. but the cooldown is only reduced by 50%.



Does this makes SW more viable for Prot? or is it still DivPurp for max SoTR uptime and most solotank content and HA for a 2nd Shieldwall and Bosses where we switch tanks (to maximise SoTR uptime while tanking).
User avatar
Schroom
 
Posts: 592
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:03 pm
Location: Luxembourg

Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Promdates » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:46 am

Still DivPurp. The CD on Avenging Wrath is too long to make it of any real use like that. It could be a good dps talent though if you're not worried about SotR uptime.
User avatar
Promdates
 
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:10 pm

Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby daishan » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:35 am

If I'm doing the maths right that'll get us 100% SotR coverage from SW at 50% haste without GC procs.
I think it'll make SW an option for some fights 100% SotR for 30 sec plus 20% increased healing received would be nice for P3 Lie Shen.
Daishan
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett
User avatar
daishan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 553
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:04 pm
Location: UK

Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Sagara » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:30 am

Well, this is becoming either

a) Random procs, highest uptime

b) Shorter cooldown, shorter duration

c) Longer cooldown, longer duration

A bit like Shammies and their Fire Elemental Glyph?
When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Worldie wrote:I used to like it [mean] back on Sylvanas.

Queldan - EU Stormrage (H) - Good night, sweet prince.
User avatar
Sagara
 
Posts: 3453
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:04 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Thels » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:02 am

Lessee... Let's assume 0% haste for a moment.

HA: Lasts 18 seconds. During these 18 seconds, we'll press CS 4 times, and J 2.66 times on average. This would generate 13.33 extra HoPo per use, or 6.66 extra HoPo per minute.

SW: Lasts 30 seconds. During these 30 seconds, we'll press J 10 times and CS 5 times. This would generate 25 total HoPo per use. Normally, in that 30 second timespawn, we'd press CS 6.66 times and J 4.44 times on average, so we'd generate 11.11 total HoPo. Therefor, SW would generate 13.88 extra HoPo per use, or 4.62 HoPo/minute.

HA also buffs the HoPo from GC, while our SW rotation actually reduces the number of GC procs while increasing the chance we waste procs from avoidance. Ergo, not only does HA generate more HoPo per minute, it also generates more HoPo per use.



To make sure Haste doesn't mess things up too much, let's check the other end of the spectrum, 50% haste:

HA: Lasts 18 seconds. During these 18 seconds, we'll press CS 6 times, and J 4 times. This would generate 20 extra HoPo per use, or 10 extra HoPo per minute.

SW: Lasts 30 seconds. During these 30 seconds, we'll press J 15 times and CS 7.5 times on average. This would generate 37.5 total HoPo per use. Normally, in that 30 second timespawn, we'd press CS 10 times and J 6.66 times on average, so we'd generate 16.66 total HoPo. Therefor, SW would generate 20.83 extra HoPo per use, or 6.94 HoPo/minute.

Again, HA also buffs the HoPo from GC, while our SW rotation actually reduces the number of GC procs while increasing the chance we waste procs from avoidance. Ergo, not only does HA generate more HoPo per minute, it also generates more HoPo per use.



So, with a lower cooldown and generating a higher SotR uptime per use, HA clearly beats SW around.
ImageImage
User avatar
Thels
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 7:30 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby daishan » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:06 am

Sagara wrote:
b) Shorter cooldown, shorter duration

c) Longer cooldown, longer duration


Ignoring GC procs I think both HA and SW will give 100% SotR coverage for 30 sec at 50% haste.

I've probably calculated this wrong so corrections would be appreciated.

HA
5 out of every 9 of our abilities generate holy power giving us 0.555 hp/s
0.5555 x 3 hp during HA = 1.666 hp/s
1.666 x 18 sec = 30 sec of SotR coverage.

SW
Changes our rotation to J-CS-x repeat, with Judgement giving 2 hp that works out to exactly 1 hp/s or 30 sec of SotR.

I'm not sure how to deal with GC procs but assume they should be equal for both talents.

I think it'll mostly come down to which talent lines up better with boss phases and possibly how much magic dmg we're taking, SW's healing bonus been fairly nice for heavy magic dmg phases.

Edit: bah typing on a smartphone is slow...

How does HA increase our GC proc rate?
Daishan
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett
User avatar
daishan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 553
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:04 pm
Location: UK

Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Thels » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:12 am

daishan wrote:I'm not sure how to deal with GC procs but assume they should be equal for both talents.


They're not!

HA causes every AS+ to generate 3 HP, not 1 HP.

They still only generate 1 HP under SW. Also, we'll press CS less often, so we get less GC procs from there. In addition, we only have 1 filler per 4 GCDs, rather than 4 fillers per 9 GCDs, so the chance that we're wasting GC procs from avoidance is quite realistic.

Without the GC procs, SW would net out very slightly in HoPo generation per use (HA would clearly win in total HoPo generation). With so much as a single GC proc under HW, or a single GC proc wasted to SW, HW wins out per use.

Of course that doesn't consider the healing received buff, which would make SW more valuable against Lei Shi.
ImageImage
User avatar
Thels
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 7:30 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby daishan » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:16 am

Thels wrote:HA causes every AS+ to generate 3 HP, not 1 HP.


/facepalm

Ye kind of forgot about that :oops:

Edit: Any idea on the dps gains from each talent?
Daishan
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett
User avatar
daishan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 553
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:04 pm
Location: UK

Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Thels » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:31 am

daishan wrote:
Thels wrote:HA causes every AS+ to generate 3 HP, not 1 HP.


/facepalm

Ye kind of forgot about that :oops:


There are also other problems with your math.

For one, you forgot that we still press CS during SW, just not as often. At 50% haste, during SW, you generate 30 HoPo from J, and 7.5 HoPo from CS, for 37.5 HoPo, or 37.5 seconds of SotR uptime (and then some, as we'll continue to generate HoPo during those last 7.5 seconds of SotR coverage).

Secondly, While you calculated the amount of HoPo we generated during HA (30 HoPo for 30 seconds is correct), we should include the HoPo generated during the following 12 seconds, so we consider the same timespawn per use for HA and SW. That would be another 4 from CS and 2.66 from J, for a total of 36.66 HoPo, or 36.66 seconds of SotR uptime (again, we'll continue to generate HoPo during these last seconds).



What I'm more interested in, is the affect this'll have on DPS. I like to open with AW+HA for some solid threatbuilding, as well as mitigation as the healers are waking up/getting to their spots. I kinda doubt that SW will overtake that, but don't have the numbers to back that up.
ImageImage
User avatar
Thels
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 7:30 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby daishan » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:48 am

Thels wrote:For one, you forgot that we still press CS during SW, just not as often. At 50% haste, during SW, you generate 30 HoPo from J, and 7.5 HoPo from CS, for 37.5 HoPo, or 37.5 seconds of SotR uptime (and then some, as we'll continue to generate HoPo during those last 7.5 seconds of SotR coverage).


Thx for cleaning up my dodgy maths.

How do you get 30 HoPo from J in the 30 sec of SW?
Surely at 50% haste during SW, J drops down to a 3 sec cd, meaning we use it every 3rd gcd or 10 times in 30 sec, it gives 2 HoPo per cast so 20 HoPo during SW not 30?
Daishan
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett
User avatar
daishan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 553
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:04 pm
Location: UK

Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:09 am

How do you get 30 HoPo from J in the 30 sec of SW?
Surely at 50% haste during SW, J drops down to a 3 sec cd, meaning we use it every 3rd gcd or 10 times in 30 sec, it gives 2 HoPo per cast so 20 HoPo during SW not 30?

SW gives Judgment a 3 second cooldown, which 50% haste would reduce to 2 seconds, wouldn't it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but: During SW with 50% Haste you'd have J at 2 second CD, and CS at 3 second CD, so you'd be casting J every 2 GCDs and CS every 4 (pushing back because 2 HoPo from J is better than 1 HoPo and chance at GC proc from CS).
Temporarily playing WoW again.
Donnan - Nangun - Kysen - Kysen - Mardun - Timkins

Mostly-Book Blog.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 6976
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby daishan » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:23 am

http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=53376

"Protection
Reduces the cooldown of _Judgment by 50%_ and causes Judgment to generate one additional Holy Power. Avenging Wrath also increases healing received by 20%."

J starts at a 6 sec gcd 50% haste gets down to 4.5 sec then a further 50% reduction will get it down to 3 sec, unless I'm been daft?
Daishan
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett
User avatar
daishan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 553
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:04 pm
Location: UK

Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:24 am

The 50% reduction from Sanctified Wrath is a direct 50% reduction, not a haste effect. (50% Haste allows you to cast 50% more attacks in the same time; 50% cooldown reduction allows you to cast twice as much.)

Judgement: 6 seconds
Judgement with SW: 3 seconds
Judgement with 50% haste: 4 seconds
Judgement with SW and 50% haste: 2 seconds

(I do hope I'm getting the way Haste works right, or I'll look like an idiot.)
Temporarily playing WoW again.
Donnan - Nangun - Kysen - Kysen - Mardun - Timkins

Mostly-Book Blog.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 6976
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby daishan » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:57 am

Meh think I'll give up posting while at work....
Daishan
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett
User avatar
daishan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 553
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:04 pm
Location: UK

Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Thels » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:31 am

As far as I know, KysenMurrin is right. Though, if he was wrong, then that would only be further into HA's benefit.
ImageImage
User avatar
Thels
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 7:30 am
Location: The Netherlands

Next

Return to Basic Training & Talents

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest