Avenging Wrath change

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Avenging Wrath change

Postby Schroom » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:20 am

Sanctified Wrath

Protection: Now causes Judgment to generate 2 Holy Power instead of 1 while Avenging Wrath is active. but the cooldown is only reduced by 50%.



Does this makes SW more viable for Prot? or is it still DivPurp for max SoTR uptime and most solotank content and HA for a 2nd Shieldwall and Bosses where we switch tanks (to maximise SoTR uptime while tanking).
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Promdates » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:46 am

Still DivPurp. The CD on Avenging Wrath is too long to make it of any real use like that. It could be a good dps talent though if you're not worried about SotR uptime.
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby daishan » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:35 am

If I'm doing the maths right that'll get us 100% SotR coverage from SW at 50% haste without GC procs.
I think it'll make SW an option for some fights 100% SotR for 30 sec plus 20% increased healing received would be nice for P3 Lie Shen.
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Sagara » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:30 am

Well, this is becoming either

a) Random procs, highest uptime

b) Shorter cooldown, shorter duration

c) Longer cooldown, longer duration

A bit like Shammies and their Fire Elemental Glyph?
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Thels » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:02 am

Lessee... Let's assume 0% haste for a moment.

HA: Lasts 18 seconds. During these 18 seconds, we'll press CS 4 times, and J 2.66 times on average. This would generate 13.33 extra HoPo per use, or 6.66 extra HoPo per minute.

SW: Lasts 30 seconds. During these 30 seconds, we'll press J 10 times and CS 5 times. This would generate 25 total HoPo per use. Normally, in that 30 second timespawn, we'd press CS 6.66 times and J 4.44 times on average, so we'd generate 11.11 total HoPo. Therefor, SW would generate 13.88 extra HoPo per use, or 4.62 HoPo/minute.

HA also buffs the HoPo from GC, while our SW rotation actually reduces the number of GC procs while increasing the chance we waste procs from avoidance. Ergo, not only does HA generate more HoPo per minute, it also generates more HoPo per use.



To make sure Haste doesn't mess things up too much, let's check the other end of the spectrum, 50% haste:

HA: Lasts 18 seconds. During these 18 seconds, we'll press CS 6 times, and J 4 times. This would generate 20 extra HoPo per use, or 10 extra HoPo per minute.

SW: Lasts 30 seconds. During these 30 seconds, we'll press J 15 times and CS 7.5 times on average. This would generate 37.5 total HoPo per use. Normally, in that 30 second timespawn, we'd press CS 10 times and J 6.66 times on average, so we'd generate 16.66 total HoPo. Therefor, SW would generate 20.83 extra HoPo per use, or 6.94 HoPo/minute.

Again, HA also buffs the HoPo from GC, while our SW rotation actually reduces the number of GC procs while increasing the chance we waste procs from avoidance. Ergo, not only does HA generate more HoPo per minute, it also generates more HoPo per use.



So, with a lower cooldown and generating a higher SotR uptime per use, HA clearly beats SW around.
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby daishan » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:06 am

Sagara wrote:
b) Shorter cooldown, shorter duration

c) Longer cooldown, longer duration


Ignoring GC procs I think both HA and SW will give 100% SotR coverage for 30 sec at 50% haste.

I've probably calculated this wrong so corrections would be appreciated.

HA
5 out of every 9 of our abilities generate holy power giving us 0.555 hp/s
0.5555 x 3 hp during HA = 1.666 hp/s
1.666 x 18 sec = 30 sec of SotR coverage.

SW
Changes our rotation to J-CS-x repeat, with Judgement giving 2 hp that works out to exactly 1 hp/s or 30 sec of SotR.

I'm not sure how to deal with GC procs but assume they should be equal for both talents.

I think it'll mostly come down to which talent lines up better with boss phases and possibly how much magic dmg we're taking, SW's healing bonus been fairly nice for heavy magic dmg phases.

Edit: bah typing on a smartphone is slow...

How does HA increase our GC proc rate?
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Thels » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:12 am

daishan wrote:I'm not sure how to deal with GC procs but assume they should be equal for both talents.


They're not!

HA causes every AS+ to generate 3 HP, not 1 HP.

They still only generate 1 HP under SW. Also, we'll press CS less often, so we get less GC procs from there. In addition, we only have 1 filler per 4 GCDs, rather than 4 fillers per 9 GCDs, so the chance that we're wasting GC procs from avoidance is quite realistic.

Without the GC procs, SW would net out very slightly in HoPo generation per use (HA would clearly win in total HoPo generation). With so much as a single GC proc under HW, or a single GC proc wasted to SW, HW wins out per use.

Of course that doesn't consider the healing received buff, which would make SW more valuable against Lei Shi.
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby daishan » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:16 am

Thels wrote:HA causes every AS+ to generate 3 HP, not 1 HP.


/facepalm

Ye kind of forgot about that :oops:

Edit: Any idea on the dps gains from each talent?
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Thels » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:31 am

daishan wrote:
Thels wrote:HA causes every AS+ to generate 3 HP, not 1 HP.


/facepalm

Ye kind of forgot about that :oops:


There are also other problems with your math.

For one, you forgot that we still press CS during SW, just not as often. At 50% haste, during SW, you generate 30 HoPo from J, and 7.5 HoPo from CS, for 37.5 HoPo, or 37.5 seconds of SotR uptime (and then some, as we'll continue to generate HoPo during those last 7.5 seconds of SotR coverage).

Secondly, While you calculated the amount of HoPo we generated during HA (30 HoPo for 30 seconds is correct), we should include the HoPo generated during the following 12 seconds, so we consider the same timespawn per use for HA and SW. That would be another 4 from CS and 2.66 from J, for a total of 36.66 HoPo, or 36.66 seconds of SotR uptime (again, we'll continue to generate HoPo during these last seconds).



What I'm more interested in, is the affect this'll have on DPS. I like to open with AW+HA for some solid threatbuilding, as well as mitigation as the healers are waking up/getting to their spots. I kinda doubt that SW will overtake that, but don't have the numbers to back that up.
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby daishan » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:48 am

Thels wrote:For one, you forgot that we still press CS during SW, just not as often. At 50% haste, during SW, you generate 30 HoPo from J, and 7.5 HoPo from CS, for 37.5 HoPo, or 37.5 seconds of SotR uptime (and then some, as we'll continue to generate HoPo during those last 7.5 seconds of SotR coverage).


Thx for cleaning up my dodgy maths.

How do you get 30 HoPo from J in the 30 sec of SW?
Surely at 50% haste during SW, J drops down to a 3 sec cd, meaning we use it every 3rd gcd or 10 times in 30 sec, it gives 2 HoPo per cast so 20 HoPo during SW not 30?
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:09 am

How do you get 30 HoPo from J in the 30 sec of SW?
Surely at 50% haste during SW, J drops down to a 3 sec cd, meaning we use it every 3rd gcd or 10 times in 30 sec, it gives 2 HoPo per cast so 20 HoPo during SW not 30?

SW gives Judgment a 3 second cooldown, which 50% haste would reduce to 2 seconds, wouldn't it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but: During SW with 50% Haste you'd have J at 2 second CD, and CS at 3 second CD, so you'd be casting J every 2 GCDs and CS every 4 (pushing back because 2 HoPo from J is better than 1 HoPo and chance at GC proc from CS).
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby daishan » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:23 am

http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=53376

"Protection
Reduces the cooldown of _Judgment by 50%_ and causes Judgment to generate one additional Holy Power. Avenging Wrath also increases healing received by 20%."

J starts at a 6 sec gcd 50% haste gets down to 4.5 sec then a further 50% reduction will get it down to 3 sec, unless I'm been daft?
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:24 am

The 50% reduction from Sanctified Wrath is a direct 50% reduction, not a haste effect. (50% Haste allows you to cast 50% more attacks in the same time; 50% cooldown reduction allows you to cast twice as much.)

Judgement: 6 seconds
Judgement with SW: 3 seconds
Judgement with 50% haste: 4 seconds
Judgement with SW and 50% haste: 2 seconds

(I do hope I'm getting the way Haste works right, or I'll look like an idiot.)
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby daishan » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:57 am

Meh think I'll give up posting while at work....
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Thels » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:31 am

As far as I know, KysenMurrin is right. Though, if he was wrong, then that would only be further into HA's benefit.
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby ZorKesh » Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:35 am

Thels wrote:So, with a lower cooldown and generating a higher SotR uptime per use, HA clearly beats SW around.

Let's take into account this Trinket (lowers cooldown for "wings") and recent change of GC...

Can you calculate would HA better than SW under these conditions?
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Thels » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:48 am

It's a little tricky to include that trinket. I'm still not 100% sure how they calculate it.

If you're offtanking, you no longer get GC procs, so SW beats HA per use by less than a single HoPo. If you are tanking, and receive as few as 1 GC proc during HA, HA still beats SW per use.

Also, do keep in mind that while SW and HA both generate almost the same amount of HoPo, HA packs these together, so that you have 100% uptime for a while, even at 0% haste. SW at 0% haste will leave holes in your SotR uptime, unless you get a GC proc every six seconds. Without GC, you generate 25 HoPo. You want to generate 30 HoPo, so you need at least 20% haste to get 100% uptime without relying on GC procs.

With less than 20% haste (or with just above 20% haste, due to latency and what not), I would still highly recommend HA, as you'll be assured of a full uptime for a certain period of time. Keep in mind that for Challenge Modes, you're very likely to be in less than 20% haste.

Above 20% haste it's more of a personal thing. HA generates slightly more HoPo per use when tanking, while SW generates slightly more HoPo per use when not tanking. HA will of course be available more often, even with the trinket, so if you use it on CD, then it obviously wins. If you save it for certain periods, and SW has short enough CD to cover these periods as well, SW could win due to the extra healing received.
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Adeya » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:33 pm

Thels wrote:
daishan wrote:I'm not sure how to deal with GC procs but assume they should be equal for both talents.


They're not!

HA causes every AS+ to generate 3 HP, not 1 HP.

They still only generate 1 HP under SW. Also, we'll press CS less often, so we get less GC procs from there. (emphasis added) In addition, we only have 1 filler per 4 GCDs, rather than 4 fillers per 9 GCDs, so the chance that we're wasting GC procs from avoidance is quite realistic.

Without the GC procs, SW would net out very slightly in HoPo generation per use (HA would clearly win in total HoPo generation). With so much as a single GC proc under HW, or a single GC proc wasted to SW, HW wins out per use.


We don't get GC procs from using paladin abilities: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=85043 So I don't understand the remark that I've underlined in the quote.

Using AS when GC procs has the same effect upon the "rotation" while HA is in effect as it has upon the "rotation" while SW is in effect, so the only difference is the amount of HP that AS with GC generates during those respective conditions. If you're "wasting" GC procs during SW then you're "wasting" them during HA, too.

However, since AS+GC produces HP just as CS and J do, it is not a "filler". One can simply substitute AS for CS or for J at least while using HA (or DivPurp) and just substitute it for CS in the context of using SW. The paladin doesn't "lose" anything with respect to generating HP (whether with regard to the damage inflicted on the target). Your attitude appears to be that any event which interferes with the keypress pattern CS-J-X-CS-X-J-CS-X-X is bad for the paladin. There's nothing wrong with AS-J-X-CS-X-AS-CS-X-X, assuming that AS is used when GC procs, is there? It certainly seems to me that each GC proc makes AS an integral part of the "rotation" with respect to analyzing its effect on paladin strategy and tactics.

Of course that doesn't consider the healing received buff, which would make SW more valuable against Lei Shi.


We can always use more healing :-). But is there a particular reason for pointing to Lei Shi ( http://www.wowhead.com/npc=62983)??
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby theckhd » Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:50 pm

Adeya wrote:We don't get GC procs from using paladin abilities: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=85043 So I don't understand the remark that I've underlined in the quote.


You necro'ed a post that's over a year old. When that post was written, Grand Crusader worked differently than it does now. If you scroll down to the Changelog section of your wowhead link, you'll see that before September 9 2013, it still had a 12% chance to proc from CS or HotR.
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Adeya » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:15 am

theckhd wrote: You necro'ed a post that's over a year old. When that post was written, Grand Crusader worked differently than it does now. If you scroll down to the Changelog section of your wowhead link, you'll see that before September 9 2013, it still had a 12% chance to proc from CS or HotR.


Ouch! Nice catch. When I read the date, if memory serves, I thought it was this past July, not a year ago. Thanks for clearing that up. I've been wondering why Thels would say that, and looking in other places for a reference regarding CS generating a GC but not finding any .... (Memo to self: look at changelogs for abilities on Wowhead!!) Come to think of it, Wrathblood probably wrote something about that in his EJ article "5.4 - EF You" pertaining to the changes to which GC has been subjected during MoP.

Oh well. I'm not sure how I came to be reading this thread, frankly. Somehow it seems that I missed the first page, too. .....
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Thels » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:16 am

This is all going to be a moot point very soon as Sanctified Wrath is going to sleep with the fishes soon, but also keep in mind that Sanctified Wrath really tightens up your rotation, which means less chance to dump GC procs, which means more chance of wasting GC procs (receiving a proc while you still have the buff), so HA is still better on that regard.
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Adeya » Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:44 pm

So, what is replacing Sanctified Wrath as a Tier 5 Level 75 talent?
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Re: Avenging Wrath change

Postby Daeva001 » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:00 pm

The new Sanctified Wrath for Protection increases the damage of Holy Wrath by 100% and causes it to generate 1 Holy Power.

Also note that Holy Wrath was changed to hit much harder than it used to and the cooldown was increased to 15 seconds.
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