Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Invisusira's playground

Moderators: Aergis, Invisusira

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Mon May 20, 2013 12:59 pm

Nooska wrote:What isn't discussed here is the payment for the national systems over taxes - the highest taxbracket for US taxes (source) is 39.6%.
I'm in the lowest tax bracket in denmark, and I pay 39% after the tax free deduction (depending on whether you work or not you get one of 2 deductions before taxes are calculated) - I have 7,250USD worth of deduction before I pay tax (and thats the lower of the deductions as I'm not employed, but on a social pension due to a work accident 12 years ago).

Tax is more than healthcare of course, but its so neat that we have healthcare segregated into 5 "regions", whis is listed seperately on the tax bill; 6% in 2013 (down from 7% in 2012)

Do keep in mind that when comparing taxes you also need to factor in the cost of health insurance as a de-facto tax, whether that is paid by the employee or the employer. If they were able to trade the dollars they pay in medical insurance for tax dollars directly, they would probably be able to fund a more efficient system than what they currently have via the economy of scale.

Sure there are going to be some rather large transition issues that the US will have to get over. They need to revamp their judicial system so that malpractice claims don't drain money from the system. If you can eliminate malpractice suits you can eliminate malpractice insurance and make the entire system much cheaper than it is. Unfortunately, the insurance lobby is rather large in the US, and the issue of eliminating malpractice would already be controversial. It would be easy for the insurance lobby to sway popular and congressional opinion towards keeping the malpractice concept alive, just by frightening the sheep a bit. In reality, the doctor doesn't pay malpractice claims; the insurance company does. The doctor gets disciplined, but there's no reason he wouldn't be equally disciplined if malpractice didn't exist.

By the way the top tax tier in New Zealand is 39%.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1671
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Cogglamp » Mon May 20, 2013 3:47 pm

I have to giggle at how Obama castigated and spat at off shore tax havens while running against Romney but then turns around and hands the Commerce nomination to Pritzker who rakes in some ~$50 million from off shore accounts.

I actually think Pritzker is a fine candidate for the position as she is a very astute business woman with serious business chops but the duplicity of the stance taking drives me bonkers.
Cogglamp
 
Posts: 726
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:04 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Cogglamp » Mon May 20, 2013 4:32 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Nooska wrote:What isn't discussed here is the payment for the national systems over taxes - the highest taxbracket for US taxes (source) is 39.6%.
I'm in the lowest tax bracket in denmark, and I pay 39% after the tax free deduction (depending on whether you work or not you get one of 2 deductions before taxes are calculated) - I have 7,250USD worth of deduction before I pay tax (and thats the lower of the deductions as I'm not employed, but on a social pension due to a work accident 12 years ago).

Tax is more than healthcare of course, but its so neat that we have healthcare segregated into 5 "regions", whis is listed seperately on the tax bill; 6% in 2013 (down from 7% in 2012)

Do keep in mind that when comparing taxes you also need to factor in the cost of health insurance as a de-facto tax, whether that is paid by the employee or the employer. If they were able to trade the dollars they pay in medical insurance for tax dollars directly, they would probably be able to fund a more efficient system than what they currently have via the economy of scale.

Sure there are going to be some rather large transition issues that the US will have to get over. They need to revamp their judicial system so that malpractice claims don't drain money from the system. If you can eliminate malpractice suits you can eliminate malpractice insurance and make the entire system much cheaper than it is. Unfortunately, the insurance lobby is rather large in the US, and the issue of eliminating malpractice would already be controversial. It would be easy for the insurance lobby to sway popular and congressional opinion towards keeping the malpractice concept alive, just by frightening the sheep a bit. In reality, the doctor doesn't pay malpractice claims; the insurance company does. The doctor gets disciplined, but there's no reason he wouldn't be equally disciplined if malpractice didn't exist.

By the way the top tax tier in New Zealand is 39%.


You're not really suggesting that a nation that has a population less than a quarter the size of New York City MSA and having less than half the number of total patients as say Kaiser Permanente be a good barometer of how to do things here in the US, are you?

Our system is pretty screwed up but you haven't faced any of the issues that plague nations facing rapidly increasing healthcare costs, namely ageing population, a shrinking workforce including your primary care physicians and current physicians seeking alternative employment means (ie out of the public partnership).
Cogglamp
 
Posts: 726
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:04 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Mon May 20, 2013 6:21 pm

Cogglamp wrote:You're not really suggesting that a nation that has a population less than a quarter the size of New York City MSA and having less than half the number of total patients as say Kaiser Permanente be a good barometer of how to do things here in the US, are you?

Our system is pretty screwed up but you haven't faced any of the issues that plague nations facing rapidly increasing healthcare costs, namely ageing population, a shrinking workforce including your primary care physicians and current physicians seeking alternative employment means (ie out of the public partnership).

The western world includes more than just New Zealand, and the vast majority of it has public healthcare. Like the metric system, it's something the rest of the western world has embraced that the US is holding out on.

I lived in the US for over 30 years. I did the HMO thing. I know what it's like over there. And yeah, my personal opinion is that the system here is better and the US should do things more like things are done here.

The fact that the US chooses to spend its money unwisely doesn't make our healthcare system any less valid. Take the billions you spend on foreign wars and corporate welfare and channel that into the domestic economy, stop sending US dollars overseas through foreign trade imbalances, and perhaps the US wouldn't be the sinking ship that it is.

China: Hey US here's some plastic crap for your landfills!
US: Shut up and take my money!

Seriously, don't go whining about economic pressures when they are largely self-inflicted and come as absolutely no surprise given the way the country has been run.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1671
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon May 20, 2013 6:28 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Cogglamp wrote:You're not really suggesting that a nation that has a population less than a quarter the size of New York City MSA and having less than half the number of total patients as say Kaiser Permanente be a good barometer of how to do things here in the US, are you?

Our system is pretty screwed up but you haven't faced any of the issues that plague nations facing rapidly increasing healthcare costs, namely ageing population, a shrinking workforce including your primary care physicians and current physicians seeking alternative employment means (ie out of the public partnership).

The western world includes more than just New Zealand, and the vast majority of it has public healthcare. Like the metric system, it's something the rest of the western world has embraced that the US is holding out on.

I lived in the US for over 30 years. I did the HMO thing. I know what it's like over there. And yeah, my personal opinion is that the system here is better and the US should do things more like things are done here.

The fact that the US chooses to spend its money unwisely doesn't make our healthcare system any less valid. Take the billions you spend on foreign wars and corporate welfare and channel that into the domestic economy, stop sending US dollars overseas through foreign trade imbalances, and perhaps the US wouldn't be the sinking ship that it is.

China: Hey US here's some plastic crap for your landfills!
US: Shut up and take my money!

Seriously, don't go whining about economic pressures when they are largely self-inflicted and come as absolutely no surprise given the way the country has been run.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04 ... s-insists/

Since I always harp about wasteful military spending..
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9382
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Mon May 20, 2013 9:25 pm

Koatanga wrote:They need to revamp their judicial system so that malpractice claims don't drain money from the system. If you can eliminate malpractice suits you can eliminate malpractice insurance and make the entire system much cheaper than it is. Unfortunately, the insurance lobby is rather large in the US, and the issue of eliminating malpractice would already be controversial. It would be easy for the insurance lobby to sway popular and congressional opinion towards keeping the malpractice concept alive, just by frightening the sheep a bit. In reality, the doctor doesn't pay malpractice claims; the insurance company does. The doctor gets disciplined, but there's no reason he wouldn't be equally disciplined if malpractice didn't exist.

By the way the top tax tier in New Zealand is 39%.

While I'm as big a fan of tort reform as anyone (though it's actually the trial lawyers, not the insurance lobby that really fight it), the affect on the bottom line isn't all that big. It's still important and not insignificant, but not a massive cost driver.

The issue with cost is a tough nut to crack. It's not as if we don't spend a ton on healthcare, or that there is a reason to think our wasteful spending has caused us to spend less on health care than others, http://kff.org/health-costs/issue-brief ... countries/

It's also hardly all doom and gloom in our medical system. Most of the problems are with administration which certainly has it's problems, but the implementation is often as good as it gets anywhere. My mother had a stroke last year when she was home alone, and she lives out on the boonies. Long story short, she got an ambulance ride to a field and from there a helicopter ride to a top notch medical facility where she stayed a few days recovering and going through some therapy which continued after she left. She has made a full recovery and the out of pocket cost was almost nothing.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6465
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Tue May 21, 2013 6:40 am

Klaudandus wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04 ... s-insists/

Since I always harp about wasteful military spending..


This drives me insane. Probably because it's rooted in my state.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 5068
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue May 21, 2013 3:39 pm

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."

"We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."

Those words rather ironically spoken by Dwight D. Eisenhower in his farewell address at the end of his presidency. I say ironic because it was his foreign policy and political puppetry that virtually guaranteed the US would have to proliferate conventional and nuclear weapons at staggering rates in order to maintain its stance as the protector and promoter of democracy in the world. Policies effectively re-awakened under Bush II, except where Eisenhower funded militant coups to bring his puppets to power, BII went in directly and had no Ayatollah ready to plug the power vacuum created by toppling Hussein.

Unfortunately, government did fall victim to the military-industrial complex to the extent the US is producing equipment it doesn't need in order to lay out a feast for the super-rich such that the crumbs that fall out of their bloated mouths may feed the starving masses below. They hold the government hostage to the fact that if they stop gorging, there will be no crumbs (jobs) for the masses.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1671
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby aureon » Tue May 21, 2013 7:43 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Koatanga wrote:They need to revamp their judicial system so that malpractice claims don't drain money from the system. If you can eliminate malpractice suits you can eliminate malpractice insurance and make the entire system much cheaper than it is. Unfortunately, the insurance lobby is rather large in the US, and the issue of eliminating malpractice would already be controversial. It would be easy for the insurance lobby to sway popular and congressional opinion towards keeping the malpractice concept alive, just by frightening the sheep a bit. In reality, the doctor doesn't pay malpractice claims; the insurance company does. The doctor gets disciplined, but there's no reason he wouldn't be equally disciplined if malpractice didn't exist.

By the way the top tax tier in New Zealand is 39%.

While I'm as big a fan of tort reform as anyone (though it's actually the trial lawyers, not the insurance lobby that really fight it), the affect on the bottom line isn't all that big. It's still important and not insignificant, but not a massive cost driver.

The issue with cost is a tough nut to crack. It's not as if we don't spend a ton on healthcare, or that there is a reason to think our wasteful spending has caused us to spend less on health care than others, http://kff.org/health-costs/issue-brief ... countries/

It's also hardly all doom and gloom in our medical system. Most of the problems are with administration which certainly has it's problems, but the implementation is often as good as it gets anywhere. My mother had a stroke last year when she was home alone, and she lives out on the boonies. Long story short, she got an ambulance ride to a field and from there a helicopter ride to a top notch medical facility where she stayed a few days recovering and going through some therapy which continued after she left. She has made a full recovery and the out of pocket cost was almost nothing.


Don't you just love people who swear Keynesian economics are complete bullshit adhere to them completely?
I wonder if someone tried to make the joke point of "But if you cut down the thing, the investor's confidence boost will outweigh the closed plants! Read the A-A paper!"
User avatar
aureon
 
Posts: 411
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:41 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu May 23, 2013 8:06 am

The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9382
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Thu May 23, 2013 8:33 am

Man, and I thought I had my dose of crazy for the day.

After looking at those tweets, I'm just.... curious about their logic. Try to follow, this might get a little rambly, and it does infer that they are correct in their assertions for a moment.

If God truly does hate gays, and they are the reason that God sent the tornadoes as a punishment for Kevin Durant supporting Jason Collins
why in the picture they posted is the rainbow flag still standing?
wouldn't it stand to reason if he hates "our idols" as the hashtag says, that he would have made sure his tornado destroyed it?
why didn't god tear the OKC Thunder's arena to shreds?
why didn't god make sure that durant was part of the tragedy?
wouldn't it stand to reason if this were some holy act of vengeance for some dude sticking up for "them" that he would have destroyed his house, and destroyed him?

I mean, in the bible, god destroyed a wicked city, sparing only those who would listen to him
he killed a man because he pulled out before impregnating a woman
he set 10 plagues upon egypt to convince them to let his people go.

But I'm supposed to believe that this tornado was his vengeance for a man speaking in favor of gay rights?

Wooboy... we've got some real winners in the connect the dots race.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 5068
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu May 23, 2013 8:55 am

I'd say God has a terrible aim. If you think about it, hurricans and tornadoes seem to statistically hit bible-belt states rather often than... I don't know... more liberal places?

You'd think if "GodH8sFags", he would actually do it by smooshing San Francisco with his finger, not Moore OK, right smack in the middle of bible-belt.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9382
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu May 23, 2013 9:27 am

So, about the whole IRS thing?
http://www.nationalmemo.com/six-facts-l ... s-scandal/

I swear it looks less and less like a scandal every day and more like the IRS just actually doing its job.

Though the 5th Amendment plea looks really really really really really bad in the eyes of public perception.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9382
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Thu May 23, 2013 12:36 pm

Klaudandus wrote:So, about the whole IRS thing?
http://www.nationalmemo.com/six-facts-l ... s-scandal/

I swear it looks less and less like a scandal every day and more like the IRS just actually doing its job.

Though the 5th Amendment plea looks really really really really really bad in the eyes of public perception.


BUT HOW WE GUNNA IMPEACH OLABAMA IF WE DUN MAK IT LUK LAK MORE DAN IT WUZ?
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 5068
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Thu May 23, 2013 12:47 pm

Klaudandus wrote:So, about the whole IRS thing?
http://www.nationalmemo.com/six-facts-l ... s-scandal/

I swear it looks less and less like a scandal every day and more like the IRS just actually doing its job.

Though the 5th Amendment plea looks really really really really really bad in the eyes of public perception.


The hypocrisy of that position is staggering.  I think it would be obvious that a government treating political groups unequally (and that article doesn't even attempt to suggest otherwise) on matters of taxation, is more than just a little bit problematic.  That shouldn't depend on who the victims are.

This is the problem with following a political party so blindly, especially here where both parties are really terrible.  It requires a bit of compromising of principles to somehow manage to rationalize this sort of injustice. 
 
The crazy thing is that at this point it's not even necessary.  There's not a whole lot there to suggest that this was politically motivated by some politicians or under any sort of direction by the administration.  That's the politics of the matter and certainly debatable.  The actions of the IRS...not so much.  I'm fairly certain that if the political groups were reversed in this story, the idea that the IRS was just doing its job, wouldn't hold up very well.
 
 
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6465
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Thu May 23, 2013 1:51 pm

Got the wife home from the hospital yesterday. All the testing and surgery plus 7 days recovery in hospital plus ambulance plus prescriptions totaled $27 directly out of my pocket. It cost me more in parking to visit her than it cost for everything else.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1671
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu May 23, 2013 5:52 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:So, about the whole IRS thing?
http://www.nationalmemo.com/six-facts-l ... s-scandal/

I swear it looks less and less like a scandal every day and more like the IRS just actually doing its job.

Though the 5th Amendment plea looks really really really really really bad in the eyes of public perception.


The hypocrisy of that position is staggering.  I think it would be obvious that a government treating political groups unequally (and that article doesn't even attempt to suggest otherwise) on matters of taxation, is more than just a little bit problematic.  That shouldn't depend on who the victims are.

This is the problem with following a political party so blindly, especially here where both parties are really terrible.  It requires a bit of compromising of principles to somehow manage to rationalize this sort of injustice. 
 
The crazy thing is that at this point it's not even necessary.  There's not a whole lot there to suggest that this was politically motivated by some politicians or under any sort of direction by the administration.  That's the politics of the matter and certainly debatable.  The actions of the IRS...not so much.  I'm fairly certain that if the political groups were reversed in this story, the idea that the IRS was just doing its job, wouldn't hold up very well.
 
 


Not sure why you think I blindly follow a political party. There are some instances where I favor republicans more (although lately, they've been making it harder and harder for me to do so)

This is the thing, any group that asks to be tax-exempt for social-welfare reasons is also asked by the IRS to stay away from politics. Just asking that raises a flag to begin with, therefore a chance to trigger an audit. I'd welcome an audits on democratic-leaning organizations too.

So here it is, some of these groups said "No, we will not use our money to try to influence politics" and did just that -- which is actually a requirement to obtain tax-exempt status... just saying.
http://www.propublica.org/documents/ite ... p15/a55223
http://www.propublica.org/article/dark- ... ion-on-ads
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9382
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Thu May 23, 2013 6:14 pm

I haven't seen that from you really at all. I mean nothing even close. Pretty much everything I've seen from you in this thread is straight down the party line, regardless of how poor the logic behind the link is.

This has some of that too. Although this article contains interesting information and I can't tell at first glance if it is being deceitful, it basically side steps the point and as a result you are doing the same thing.

Sadly, you are attempting to justify this by suggesting that these groups were not following the law. That may have been the case for some of them, but that's not the point. Liberal groups do the same thing, but they were not targeted. Whether you welcome those audits or not is irrelevant because they weren't nearly as likely to be subjected to them. The conservative groups weren't targeted at random or for anything resembling probable cause, they were targeted because of their political ideology. It was guilt by association, textbook profiling, or whatever other buzzword you want to call it. Buzzwords that you rail against when the victim isn't ideologically opposed to you...just saying.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6465
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Fri May 24, 2013 7:18 am

The biggest point, and the one that should be the end all be all of this whole conversation about "if" it was appropriate or not, is Point #6 of the article.

6. Some social welfare groups promised in their applications, under penalty of perjury, that they wouldn’t get involved in elections. Then they did just that.


Sorry, I have no love for groups that engage in this behavior. I personally think that they should take it back to the point where a Social Welfare registered entity cannot enter politics at all. Zero. Zilch.

I don't care if they are trying to help Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Tea Party, Communist Party, Socialist Party.

If you register as a Social Welfare Organization, then GTFO and STFO Politics. It's pretty simple.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 5068
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri May 24, 2013 7:22 am

Shoju wrote:The biggest point, and the one that should be the end all be all of this whole conversation about "if" it was appropriate or not, is Point #6 of the article.

6. Some social welfare groups promised in their applications, under penalty of perjury, that they wouldn’t get involved in elections. Then they did just that.


Sorry, I have no love for groups that engage in this behavior. I personally think that they should take it back to the point where a Social Welfare registered entity cannot enter politics at all. Zero. Zilch.

I don't care if they are trying to help Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Tea Party, Communist Party, Socialist Party.

If you register as a Social Welfare Organization, then GTFO and STFO Politics. It's pretty simple.


And I completely agree with that.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9382
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Fri May 24, 2013 8:59 am

Wow, this is amazingly eye-opening.
 
No, I don't agree that that is the biggest issue at all, not even close. I'm, astonished that anyone would. I don't think it's ever appropriate to target a group in this manner.

First of all, just to put that ridiculous idea to bed... according to that article, of the money spent on elections "None came from the Tea Party groups with applications flagged by the IRS.  Instead, a few big conservative groups were largely responsible"  So that argument is dead.  It should have never have been uttered because the side effects are amazingly scary.
 
That argument suggests that it is OK for the government to target, audit, and/or investigate groups for whatever reason it wants as long as "some" of them are not following the law.  /shudder
 
I'd like to think that if some groups are conducting illegal activities from their homes in my neighborhood, that that is not justification for the government to investigate my family without a warrant or probable cause.  Or that, more broadly, all muslims can be targets of investigations because some of them perpetrated 9/11.
 
There are all sorts of reasons why we have protections like warrant requirements and the ability to challenge notions of probable cause, etc.  Now I realize that the IRS isn't a law enforcement agency, and so those notions don't directly translate, but the ethics and principles behind them do.  It's necessary for the IRS to be able to randomly audit records.  It's fine for the IRS to have automated triggers for these audits, as long as they are applied to everyone.  Allowing the IRS to specifically target groups that it feels like is apalling. The consequences of that power are dire, and literally takes us back several hundred years.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6465
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri May 24, 2013 9:09 am

Fridmarr wrote:It's necessary for the IRS to be able to randomly audit records.  It's fine for the IRS to have automated triggers for these audits, as long as they are applied to everyone.  Allowing the IRS to specifically target groups that it feels like is apalling.  The consequences of that power are dire, and literally takes us back several hundred years.


New Audit Allegations Show Flawed Statistical Thinking
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.co ... &seid=auto

Not really discounting your point, just adding to it.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9382
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Fri May 24, 2013 10:04 am

Yeah their behavior has opened a jar of flies.  I'm not suggesting that the IRS is targeting individuals based on political affiliation.  It would be difficult (aside from the more infamous/high profile) to really do, but you could certainly come up with a point system that on the whole accomplishes that goal. 
 
If the IRS was willing to inappropriately target groups, it's not exactly a quantum leap to believe that the IRS was willing to do that at the individual level either.  That's why the scope of this problem needs to be determined, and we all should require that there is proper transparency and oversight of the process going forward.
 
 
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6465
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat May 25, 2013 6:58 am

The thing is, you seem to think I'd not bat an eyelash if the IRS had targeted democratic leaning social welfare groups that asked for tax-exempt status.

If they can prove they actively targeted right-leaning groups, then I want whoever authorized that to be held responsible -- but if they got targeted as a routine measure due to applying for TAX-EXEMPT STATUS, well, I find it hard to get outraged.

I mean, what's the schtick with the Tea Party? They are always saying they're being taxed too much.

Anyways, I've always thought that if someone screws up they should be held accountable.

When Jon Stewart (or should I call him Jonathan Leibowitz?) lashes at the current administration, I tend to completely agree with it.

Also, I want Holder out, the guy just keeps screwing up again and again. The whole tap on AP and FOX News does sicken me. That is a scandal IMO.

It is just easier for me to tack on the republicans since when they screw up, they do it in such a fashion it is just easier to pile on them.

And the reason why I don't talk about the parts I agree with republicans is because, according to my friends it makes me a racist and a hater of my own race (being part latino)... yeah, I got really strong words/sentiments towards immigration...

Also... http://www.salon.com/2013/05/24/ted_cru ... the_world/
Image
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9382
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Sat May 25, 2013 9:25 am

No, I think that if liberal groups were unfairly targeted you'd be screaming about it, and if that occurred with a Republican administration you'd likely suspect them. First, all of those left wing sources that you read (based on your many links) that have had you screaming about a lot of other much less significant (or nonexistent) issues, would have exploded. They sure as hell would be trying to pin it on Republicans and reaching as far as they need to do so. I don't think the article that you linked, which again is not suggesting that the IRS was not inappropriate, would have you doubting whether or not this was truly a problem.

I have to seriously laugh when you say "if they can prove they actively targeted right-leaning groups" I mean the reason this story broke is because the IRS admitted to inappropriately, actively (they were specifically searching for specific words like...Tea Party and Patriot in applications) targeting conservative groups. That was like 3 weeks ago. There has never been any doubt (well except for this thread apparently) that the IRS acted inappropriately. Do you think you wouldn't be aware of that fundamental fact, had this exploded on your left wing media/blogosphere sources?
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6465
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

PreviousNext

Return to Arkham Asylum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest