Weapon Enchant

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Weapon Enchant

Postby Didadididou » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:15 am

Hi everyone,

I was recently wondering which weapon enchant should I go for. Let me explain a bit.

I'm currently raiding in 10 Man Heroic Throne of Thunder (1/13 Killed, though). As I always felt very comfortable with my survivability, I decided to go for a high DPS optimization a while ago. Therefore, I used to play with Dancing Steel instead of Windsong during 5.1 raids. But now, I'm asking myself if dancing steel is still a relevant choice. Here's why :
- Our Vengeance grew a lot with the new raid's encounters.
- I am also currently raiding partly in heroic, and monotanking normal bosses whenever it's possible.
- I suppose it's useless to remind anyone here that the more vengeance we have, the less strength is valuable.


So here's the question :
Considering how both enchants work (i.e. with the possibility of having multiple procs of windsong at a time), which weapon enchant will provide me the best DPS output ?
Didadididou
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:28 am

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby Koatanga » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:06 pm

For very large values of vengeance, would an additional 200 haste make enough of a difference to make the Living Steel Weapon Chain an option? (The haste would obviously come from not having to get 200 expertise from other gear, allowing you to forge/gem it to haste instead)
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1687
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby Fetzie » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:38 am

Koatanga wrote:For very large values of vengeance, would an additional 200 haste make enough of a difference to make the Living Steel Weapon Chain an option? (The haste would obviously come from not having to get 200 expertise from other gear, allowing you to forge/gem it to haste instead)

Pretty sure near 50% uptime on almost 4k AP is more dps than 200 haste rating (probably slightly less because of how reforging works).
Fetzie | Protection/Holy Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Former Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2033
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby theckhd » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:28 am

At current Vengeance levels, I don't think Windsong will pull ahead. Windsong is 2 RPPM, Dancing Steel is 2.3 RPPM. As a rough estimate, that means you get 13% uptime on the crit and haste buffs (8 seconds each every minute). That same rough estimate would put Dancing Steel at around 46% uptime (2.3*12/60), though that's an over-estimate due to munching. A more reasonable estimate would be about 37% uptime (1-(1-p)^N, with p=2.3*1/60 and N=12). The same calculation for Windsong drops it to 12.55%, but let's be generous and round up.

So 37% uptime on 1650 Strength vs. 13% uptime on 1500 crit and 1500 haste. Using the DPS stat weights for 150k Vengeance:
STR = 1.466
haste = 2.517
crit = 1.645

0.37*1650*1.466= 895 DPS

0.13*1500*2.517= 491 DPS
0.13*1500*1.645= 320 DPS

So Dancing Steel grants about 895 DPS, while Windsong grants around 811 DPS. That's at 150k Vengeance; below that point Dancing Steel will continue to dominate. At higher Vengeance values Windsong will eventually surpass Dancing Steel.

To estimate that crossover, let's assume that Windsong scales linearly with AP (pretty good assumption). We start with 40k AP from gear, so the base Windsong DPS value is 811*40/190= 171 DPS. The remaining DPS is due to the 150k Vengeance AP, giving (811-171)/150= 4.27 DPS per 1k vengeance. We can check that this is correct: 171+4.27*150=811.5, which is within rounding error (I rounded several values to the nearest DPS along the way). Thus, we want to know at what Vengeance value X we reach 895 DPS, or 171+4.27*X=895. Solving that gives X=170.

So the Vengeance breakpoint at which Windsong becomes higher DPS than Dancing Steel is around 170k Vengeance AP. Note that if you want the most average DPS over a fight, you also need to average your Vengeance value (meaning including periods of off-tanking, where you generally have less Vengeance).
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby Fetzie » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:49 am

Does that STR stat weight include the 10% AP buff?
Fetzie | Protection/Holy Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Former Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2033
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby theckhd » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:36 am

Fetzie wrote:Does that STR stat weight include the 10% AP buff?

Yes. On second thought, it also includes Kings, so I actually need to correct that slightly. Fixed.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby Didadididou » Wed May 01, 2013 2:02 am

Well, thanks a lot for all the answers. Since the breakpoint is that high, I guess I'm going to stay with Dancing Steel for Throne of Thunder.
Didadididou
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:28 am

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby Darrak » Thu May 02, 2013 4:36 pm

i guess that makes windsong dps enchant of choice for 25m hc tot
Image
Darrak
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:15 am

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby Setokaiba » Fri May 10, 2013 3:01 am

theckhd wrote:At current Vengeance levels, I don't think Windsong will pull ahead. Windsong is 2 RPPM, Dancing Steel is 2.3 RPPM. As a rough estimate, that means you get 13% uptime on the crit and haste buffs (8 seconds each every minute). That same rough estimate would put Dancing Steel at around 46% uptime (2.3*12/60), though that's an over-estimate due to munching. A more reasonable estimate would be about 37% uptime (1-(1-p)^N, with p=2.3*1/60 and N=12). The same calculation for Windsong drops it to 12.55%, but let's be generous and round up.

So 37% uptime on 1650 Strength vs. 13% uptime on 1500 crit and 1500 haste. Using the DPS stat weights for 150k Vengeance:
STR = 1.466
haste = 2.517
crit = 1.645

0.37*1650*1.466= 895 DPS

0.13*1500*2.517= 491 DPS
0.13*1500*1.645= 320 DPS

So Dancing Steel grants about 895 DPS, while Windsong grants around 811 DPS. That's at 150k Vengeance; below that point Dancing Steel will continue to dominate. At higher Vengeance values Windsong will eventually surpass Dancing Steel.

To estimate that crossover, let's assume that Windsong scales linearly with AP (pretty good assumption). We start with 40k AP from gear, so the base Windsong DPS value is 811*40/190= 171 DPS. The remaining DPS is due to the 150k Vengeance AP, giving (811-171)/150= 4.27 DPS per 1k vengeance. We can check that this is correct: 171+4.27*150=811.5, which is within rounding error (I rounded several values to the nearest DPS along the way). Thus, we want to know at what Vengeance value X we reach 895 DPS, or 171+4.27*X=895. Solving that gives X=170.

So the Vengeance breakpoint at which Windsong becomes higher DPS than Dancing Steel is around 170k Vengeance AP. Note that if you want the most average DPS over a fight, you also need to average your Vengeance value (meaning including periods of off-tanking, where you generally have less Vengeance).


I'm pretty sure you need to include weapon speed in PPM calculations? or it only for trinkets
Also I believe mastery proc increases dmg through alabaster shield glyph?

Now regarding uptime... I'm looking at logs and just don't get the same numbers
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/85zs ... #tab-auras
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/85zs ... #tab-auras

Yeh it depends which of 3 is going to proc more, but you always get 1 on at least 11%+, the other two on 15-20, so that's roughly 50-55% combined.
If lucky crit and haste will be around 15%, which I think is a fair increase

ps. don't forget windsong can proc 1-3 at a time, which means you can get a huge dps boost at a time...BL+all cds at start yes yes:)
Setokaiba
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:11 am

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby theckhd » Fri May 10, 2013 9:33 pm

Weapon speed has no effect on RPPM calculations. It has an effect on old-school PPM effects, but both enchants are RPPM.

The mastery proc's effect on Alabaster Shield is not going to be very large, ~2% higher chance to block is not going to give you a lot more AS charges. Not to mention that you probably won't have AS glyphed for every encounter.

Your logs show ~15%-17% average uptime on any given proc, which is consistent with this calculation. Remember that the 13% here is without any haste, and RPPM effects scale with haste. Both enchants will scale about equally with haste though, which is why I've ignored it.

And sure, they can proc 1-3 at a time during BL+cooldowns... or they could not. It's great if they do line up, not as great when they don't. And all told, Dancing Steel is far more likely to be up during BL because of its higher uptime.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby Setokaiba » Wed May 15, 2013 7:01 am

theckhd wrote:Weapon speed has no effect on RPPM calculations. It has an effect on old-school PPM effects, but both enchants are RPPM.

The mastery proc's effect on Alabaster Shield is not going to be very large, ~2% higher chance to block is not going to give you a lot more AS charges. Not to mention that you probably won't have AS glyphed for every encounter.

Your logs show ~15%-17% average uptime on any given proc, which is consistent with this calculation. Remember that the 13% here is without any haste, and RPPM effects scale with haste. Both enchants will scale about equally with haste though, which is why I've ignored it.

And sure, they can proc 1-3 at a time during BL+cooldowns... or they could not. It's great if they do line up, not as great when they don't. And all told, Dancing Steel is far more likely to be up during BL because of its higher uptime.


Yeh, however if both Crit+Haste proc at the same time they contribute to each other and can give higher DPS increase.
It's pure RNG, but I've seen it a lot(mostly at start ofc, because of proc downite). Might switch to WS and configure WeakAuras to show whwn both of them are up to test the chances of it:)
Setokaiba
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:11 am

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby theckhd » Wed May 15, 2013 3:51 pm

On average, those effects should cancel out. I don't think "but they can line up during BL" is a valid argument since it isn't guaranteed. Plus, while the multiplicative effect is non-trivial, it's also not as big an increase as I think you're imagining it to be.

The best argument for WS is that in heroic modes, 200k+ vengeance is not uncommon. I may switch to it soon myself.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby Schroom » Wed May 15, 2013 11:37 pm

mh.... would be interesting seeing the DPS comparison of WS and DS vs vengeance. Along with the average uptimes at specific haste points in order to really get an impression. I'm closing in on 16k haste rating now so it is starting to get really interesting here.
User avatar
Schroom
 
Posts: 670
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:03 pm
Location: Luxembourg

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby Setokaiba » Thu May 16, 2013 2:04 am

theckhd wrote:On average, those effects should cancel out. I don't think "but they can line up during BL" is a valid argument since it isn't guaranteed. Plus, while the multiplicative effect is non-trivial, it's also not as big an increase as I think you're imagining it to be.

The best argument for WS is that in heroic modes, 200k+ vengeance is not uncommon. I may switch to it soon myself.


Fair enough. What about WS as def enchant?
Setokaiba
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:11 am

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby theckhd » Thu May 16, 2013 6:23 pm

It's not a bad choice. I'm not sure any of them really stand out as strong for defense anymore. I liked Colossus, but it also doesn't scale with boss damage, so by heroic T15 content it's falling behind. May still be a better smoothing enchant than Windsong, but probably not by much if at all. And the dps trade from going to Dancing Steel or Windsong is pretty huge.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby Setokaiba » Fri May 17, 2013 4:21 am

theckhd wrote:It's not a bad choice. I'm not sure any of them really stand out as strong for defense anymore. I liked Colossus, but it also doesn't scale with boss damage, so by heroic T15 content it's falling behind. May still be a better smoothing enchant than Windsong, but probably not by much if at all. And the dps trade from going to Dancing Steel or Windsong is pretty huge.


Ok yeah thanks:)
I'm just thinking WS vs DS as overall.

Comparing "WS DPS+DEF" vs "DS DPS+DEF" - what would you choose?:) or what are the stats in that matter.
Setokaiba
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:11 am

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby Schroom » Fri May 17, 2013 5:14 am

I chose DS had one riad with it, and Wow never want to go back again. I also use 2 on procc strenght trinkets atm with all 3 buffs up I get a huuuge amount of parry and lots of DePS. The only trouble atm is that our warrior tanks starts getting trouble keeping the boss after taunting, even with me giving myself Hand of salvation.
User avatar
Schroom
 
Posts: 670
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:03 pm
Location: Luxembourg

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby Worldie » Fri May 17, 2013 6:09 am

You shouldn't base your experience on "moments in which all stars align and I get all the procs up at same time".
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 8837
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby Schroom » Fri May 17, 2013 6:47 am

well while surveying the proccs (and the ICD) it can be timed quite well and preplaned when those proccs happen (excep for DS of course as it is RPPM)

maybe you know the experience from Warlocks (which is my alt, so I can compare the best) or other similar classes.
User avatar
Schroom
 
Posts: 670
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:03 pm
Location: Luxembourg

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby Worldie » Fri May 17, 2013 8:08 am

Remember that if you get stacked procs, it means you will have a long period of time (ICD) during which you will have no proc up thus your DPS will actually be much lower.
That's why you don't base DPS upon proc stacking but rather up average effect of procs.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 8837
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby theckhd » Mon May 20, 2013 8:58 am

As far as I'm aware, Windsong and DS don't have an ICD to begin with, so that's a non-issue.

Also, Worldie, that logic is completely wrong. Getting two procs simultaneously (i.e. haste and crit) is a bigger DPS increase than getting them serially (i.e. the second after the first expires). That's why most classes like to line up as many procs as they can with potions, initial cooldowns, and heroism at the beginning of a fight.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby Schroom » Tue May 21, 2013 1:47 am

theckhd wrote:As far as I'm aware, Windsong and DS don't have an ICD to begin with, so that's a non-issue.


yup it's RPPM so nonissue.

theckhd wrote:Also, Worldie, that logic is completely wrong. Getting two procs simultaneously (i.e. haste and crit) is a bigger DPS increase than getting them serially (i.e. the second after the first expires). That's why most classes like to line up as many procs as they can with potions, initial cooldowns, and heroism at the beginning of a fight.


that's what I thought that's also why I like to track this stuff. I got nonRPPM trinekts that procc strength. so I also prefer to track the ICD. and if I see that they will procc in the next few seconds, I might delay stuff like wings, HA, or ES just to take that strength into the brust and gain more DPS.

a prefect example is the level 90 Talent in fakt, as it snappshots the AP at the moment you cast it. So saying it will drop off Cooldown in the next few seconds,

first: if I'm not aktively tanking, I check my vengeancelevel, has it dropped of yet? when I know a fight I know what vengeancelevels to expect in what phase so I can see if it would eb worth using ES now or wait a couple of seconds if I am going to taunt soon.
second: what is my CD on Wings? is it ready now or pretty soon?
then: Trinkets: are they active now? pretty soon?

those are all informations helping me judge if I use my level 90 Talent now or wait a couple of seconds.
User avatar
Schroom
 
Posts: 670
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:03 pm
Location: Luxembourg

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby Setokaiba » Tue May 21, 2013 2:40 am

Schroom wrote:
theckhd wrote:As far as I'm aware, Windsong and DS don't have an ICD to begin with, so that's a non-issue.


yup it's RPPM so nonissue.

theckhd wrote:Also, Worldie, that logic is completely wrong. Getting two procs simultaneously (i.e. haste and crit) is a bigger DPS increase than getting them serially (i.e. the second after the first expires). That's why most classes like to line up as many procs as they can with potions, initial cooldowns, and heroism at the beginning of a fight.


that's what I thought that's also why I like to track this stuff. I got nonRPPM trinekts that procc strength. so I also prefer to track the ICD. and if I see that they will procc in the next few seconds, I might delay stuff like wings, HA, or ES just to take that strength into the brust and gain more DPS.

a prefect example is the level 90 Talent in fakt, as it snappshots the AP at the moment you cast it. So saying it will drop off Cooldown in the next few seconds,

first: if I'm not aktively tanking, I check my vengeancelevel, has it dropped of yet? when I know a fight I know what vengeancelevels to expect in what phase so I can see if it would eb worth using ES now or wait a couple of seconds if I am going to taunt soon.
second: what is my CD on Wings? is it ready now or pretty soon?
then: Trinkets: are they active now? pretty soon?

those are all informations helping me judge if I use my level 90 Talent now or wait a couple of seconds.


I'm not sure if we are talking about lvl90 talent or about aligning your trinket procs:)

theckhd wrote:As far as I'm aware, Windsong and DS don't have an ICD to begin with, so that's a non-issue.

Also, Worldie, that logic is completely wrong. Getting two procs simultaneously (i.e. haste and crit) is a bigger DPS increase than getting them serially (i.e. the second after the first expires). That's why most classes like to line up as many procs as they can with potions, initial cooldowns, and heroism at the beginning of a fight.

Anyway, tried WS this week. On average there's 5-10 secs per fight when both buffs up. So dunno if that makes a difference, but again, good when solo tanking:)
Setokaiba
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:11 am

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby theckhd » Tue May 21, 2013 4:29 am

Setokaiba wrote:I'm not sure if we are talking about lvl90 talent or about aligning your trinket procs:)

Well, the two aren't unrelated. Execution Sentence snapshots your current stats (AP primarily, as it's not affected by haste) when you cast it, so you can get a sizable DPS increase by stacking as many effects as you can before using ES. Light's Hammer updates dynamically though, so the same trick isn't as useful with LH.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Weapon Enchant

Postby Schroom » Tue May 21, 2013 11:53 pm

theckhd wrote:
Setokaiba wrote:I'm not sure if we are talking about lvl90 talent or about aligning your trinket procs:)

Well, the two aren't unrelated. Execution Sentence snapshots your current stats (AP primarily, as it's not affected by haste) when you cast it, so you can get a sizable DPS increase by stacking as many effects as you can before using ES. Light's Hammer updates dynamically though, so the same trick isn't as useful with LH.



thank you, that's what I meant.

thanks for indicating that LH is dynamic. wasn't to sure here, that's why I generalized. HoPr is a one time thing as well all know, so stacking effects here can be nice as well. Although, as the Cooldown is really short, one should only delay it by a couple of seconds at the most.
User avatar
Schroom
 
Posts: 670
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:03 pm
Location: Luxembourg

Next

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest