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Help with Zuljin.

Nalorakk, Akil'zon, Jan'alai, Halazzi, Malacrass, Zul'jin

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Help with Zuljin.

Postby Grigsby » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:50 am

Need a little help on understanding my role in the Zuljin Fight -

We have a Warrior tanking him, which relegates me to the role of healing. (Which I am fine with).

so -

Phase 1: Troll - In healer gear I run up and Consecrate the adds, the Non-Elite trolls, and run back once they are dead (Simply so the tank doesn't have to worry about them) - Flash Heal the Grievous throw targets, Conserve Mana.

Phase 2: Bear - Cleanse the Paralysis on the Tanks and Healers asap - Spot heal the raid.

Phase 3: Eagle - I have no clue what to do besides run around like a chicken. I am always getting hit whenever I try to stop and FH (Flash Heal) someone. About the only thing I figured out was when multiple people were getting dangerously low I ran into the middle, Bubbled, and healed as fast as I could.

Phase 4: Lynx - This phase is a pain, and we kept wiping at this point. Any suggestions as a Prot in Healing gear on what to do?

Phase 5: DragonHawk - Never saw it - no clue what to do.


Thanks for the Suggestions.
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Postby Lore » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:56 am

Phase 3: Yeah pretty much, just try and get some distance from the things and throw out holy lights as you can. FoL, for me at least, isn't really worth it since it damages me for almost as much as I actually heal someone else.

Phase 4: Heal people. BoP is pretty huge here as well; if you BoP whoever he's doing the claw rush on, he'll go back to the tank and claw rush them instead, and the tank is much easier to keep up than a holy priest. Any aggro drop will work - mages can ice block, hunters can feign death, I *think* rogues can vanish but not sure.

Phase 5: Don't stand in fire pillars, win.
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Postby Aalryn » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:27 am

as lore said. phase 3 even as a tankadin I just stand off in a corner and wait for the dps to get him to 41% before I move back into range. You can toss the occasional holy light. FoL is ineffective as you get hurt for the amount you just healed.


phase 4 you set up a bop rotation with any other paladin there. If anyone but a mage (iceblock), hunter (feign), rogue(vanish), or warrior (armor), paladin (DS), get it you bop them.

phase 5. stay out of the fire pillars and collect loot.
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Postby Grigsby » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:29 am

Aalryn wrote:You can toss the occasional holy light. FoL is ineffective as you get hurt for the amount you just healed.


Ok - so maybe I'm missing something, since you've both mentioned it.

Why is FoL Ineffective on that phase?
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Postby Aalryn » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:40 am

Grigsby wrote:
Aalryn wrote:You can toss the occasional holy light. FoL is ineffective as you get hurt for the amount you just healed.


Ok - so maybe I'm missing something, since you've both mentioned it.

Why is FoL Ineffective on that phase?


every time you cast a spell you get zapped for 1200 damage or so. You want your heal to be a good bit more than that.
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Postby Sthallas » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:44 pm

I would humbly suggest that you tank and the warrior dps, we end up getting him down more reliably with 1 more dps rather than 1 extra scrub prot healer.
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Postby Grigsby » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:46 pm

For that one phase, I would agree. But the extra 1/2 Person healing for all the phases makes a huge difference.
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Postby Sthallas » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:53 pm

Grigsby wrote:For that one phase, I would agree. But the extra 1/2 Person healing for all the phases makes a huge difference.

I really disagree with that, your small prot heals will almost always cause an overheal by the same amount from a full healer. A prot warrior in dps gear (or especially a feral druid in cat form/gear which is what I usually have with to lash soak for me) is more effective as dps than you are at prot healing.
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Postby Aalryn » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:40 pm

umm... a protection spec paladin in healing gear is still an amazingly powerful healer.
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Postby Sthallas » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:14 pm

Aalryn wrote:umm... a protection spec paladin in healing gear is still an amazingly powerful healer.

3 healers is plenty for ZJ. Why would you have a 4th offspec heal when you could have more dps, especially melee dps for P3?

That said I find (yes even in full ZA/Badge heal gear with the ZA mace and shield) that my FoL heals tend to get written over by the full heals from the other healers and basically wasting their mana. If I HL without Illumination I run OOM to fast to make it worthwhile, I'd just much rather tank the whole thing and let the OT dps when no lash soaker is needed and get done faster than have redundant healing.
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Postby Grigsby » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:21 pm

The point is - A Smart Off-Spec healer, is MORE beneficial than Prot-Dps.

Using Proper mana management, consumables, and being a smart healer, will get you farther than throwing another DPS into the mix that will require additional healing.

Basically, you are taking 1 person out of the mix that needs to be healed, and adding in 1 person that's equiv to at least 1/2 a healer. And Pally's dont spam Holy Light anyways, it's Flash of Light, I think I can count using Holy Light a grand total of 3 times when Off-healing. My Flash of Light heals for over 1k before Crit, and letting the healers concentrate on the higher priorities allows your raid to progress farther.

Also, all the warlocks are told that when someone is off-healing like that, to call out when life-tapping and only the off-healer will heal them. This still allows regular healers to concentrate on the more important targets.

The Bear Phase with Zuljin - I would rather concentrate on cleansing and allowing the healers to heal than the other way around. Not to mention being able to bubble people quicker when not tanking. and being a lot more utility than the prot warrior can be. I can also stand behind the boss and keep whacking him to keep JoW on the boss.

All I can see is that choosing to not off-heal Zuljin and allow a warrior to tank him (When a better-geared prot warrior is available) is not humbling yourself.
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Postby Sthallas » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:40 pm

It's not more beneficial when you have a BEAR soaking lashes and then he switches to dps, he does WAY MORE DPS compared to how much you could heal. A cat/bear spec is almost identical so they arent losing anything when they switch to cat gear before ZJ. Thus they are (almost) a pure DPSer at that point.

Even conceding you are dual tanking ZA with a warrior instead, 1k heals are junk and will be ignored by the normal healers when they are healing the targets to full basically causing their heal to now over heal slightly almost every time. In the time crunch for frenetic healing during ZJ your heals are not usually going to be noticed and are not helping very much in fact not having 1 more dps is extending the time you are fighting in each phase. But then again what do I know, I've only been killing ZJ twice a week since the patch came out.

P1: Run to the middle, drop consecrate, HS and JoR ZJ at the same time, the adds all die almost immediate and you keep your rotation up on ZJ.

P2: Your healers should be grouping up on you (or whoever is tanking) and your holy priest should be dropping Mass Dispell centered on you during P2 to get rid of the paralyze, keep the dps on the other side of ZJ so that the MD isn't wasted on a dps, feel free to clease dps while you tank. Btw, yes we have done it with out MD and it wasn't hard either with me tanking/cleasing and another pally healing/cleansing, hell we've even done it with a ret pally for the 2nd cleanse. Grid+Clique for cleanse and we just stated who we were each going to focus on ahead of time. Priority = Tank -> healers and then dps if theres time.

P3: i stand off and occasionally throw a HL max rank at somone who may be out of range of the other healers and is getting dangerously low.

P4: Tank and ready your mouse over macro or grid+clique for BoP on a clothie. Let the healers focus heal any non clothie that gets targeted. Chain heal and/or CoH with everyone grouped up around the tank during the phase basically negates the lynx rush raid DoT.

P5: Tank and switch to Fire Resist Aura. Be prepared to move ZJ when you or a melee dps gets a fire column.

Win.
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Postby Questioner » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:52 pm

Grigsby wrote:The point is - A Smart Off-Spec healer, is MORE beneficial than Prot-Dps.


If you prot warrior is putting out laughable dps he is terrible. He hasn't invested the time and effort to put together a dps set like you have a healing set. It is time that myth was ended. Prot dps in dps gear in NOT low.

The first time we killed him I healed because the group wasn't sure how hard it would be. From then on having the warrior dps has easily saved more lives by keeping the fight shorter.

(I still throw heals when tanking during the lynx phase when no bop is up)

Our average DPS Warrior dps is probably ~1000. Lokdar puts out at least 800 when he dps's as prot. It isn't chart topping, but that is nothing to laugh at.
Last edited by Questioner on Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Aalryn » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:52 pm

I just get defensive when people say prot paladins are bad healers. Hell i get angry when people message me for groups saying "holy?".. like no i'm not holy, but i can heal better than every holy spec paladin you'll invite over me. Kinda irks me, but maybe that's just because i'm an elitist and have kinda a big ego (which I'm sure from my posts you have all figured out by now).


That being said. I do feel paladins are better tanks for zul'jin than a warrior is and even a prot warrior should be dpsing. We have a higher frontload threat than other tanks which makes phase changes much more smooth. Also because of the length of phase 3, we can pop AW at the start of phase 2 for added threat on the bear, and can cleanse ourselves to avoid getting stunned when tanking.

As for phase 3 i just stand off in a corner and mana/5 regen mana from BoW to go all out again at phase 4.

phase 4 is good to get frontload threat on and keep it. he attacks very quickly so our holy shield charges make this fight prefer a paladin tank.

phase 5 we have our AW back up and ready so the dps can unload at 20% with executes and everything to burn him down.


so I agree with Sthallas with everything but the paladins being a wasted healer >.>
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Postby Questioner » Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:19 am

And since we all love evidence, here is the WWS of our progression Rage Winterchill kill that I tanked last night.

http://wowwebstats.com/y3n5xlhqg4z1u?s=994-1291

Lokdar is our typical main tank. He was full prot spec wearing dps gear. In the time he was alive (66% presence) he did 854 dps. Sadly, this is more than our resident fury warrior (Ahuch) but Ahuch is the GM. :D (And also did more like 1200 on Anetheron)
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