Patch 5.3 Notes

Anything, including off-topic posts

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, PsiVen, Sabindeus, Aergis

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby halabar » Wed May 08, 2013 9:32 am

Worldie wrote:Well it's hardly a PvE nerf, since all the pet abilities are used for CC or control and have no effect on damage.


The way the BM talent reads, and Nooska can correct me if I'm wrong, the BM exotic talent effects speed of all pet attacks. So yeah, it would be a BM nerf.

To be fair, there are some other buffs on the PTR for hunters overall, but the changes are pulling BM down to the others and pushing the other specs up.

Ran femaledwarf.com on my gear/talents/etc, and SV is now slightly less that 2% behind BM.

The other concern is that there have been so many CC nerfs to hunters, it's really going to effect BM playstyle.

Still will be working on my lock, and seeing how that goes...
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 6557
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Klaudandus » Wed May 08, 2013 9:33 am

I say nerf dr part of sotr more but increase its duration.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9471
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby halabar » Wed May 08, 2013 9:35 am

Jabari wrote:
Worldie wrote:Well it's hardly a PvE nerf, since all the pet abilities are used for CC or control and have no effect on damage.


Doesn't it apply to Rabid at a minimum as a direct DPS nerf?

Also, it would certainly apply to two different abilities that I use rather a lot: Spirit Mend and whatever the Tallstrider's AoE Sunder is called. :(

It actually really sucks for any of the debuff-giving pets for any fight at all with target changes - Tallstrider/Windserpent/Worm/Ravager lose a ton of their utility if they can't consistently put the debuff on new targets relatively quickly.


They reduced the cooldown on Rabid, but that of course doesn't help those special abilities.

Yep, it's a direct nerf to Spirit Mend, and all those timed debuffs.
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 6557
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Jabari » Wed May 08, 2013 9:49 am

halabar wrote:
Worldie wrote:Well it's hardly a PvE nerf, since all the pet abilities are used for CC or control and have no effect on damage.


The way the BM talent reads, and Nooska can correct me if I'm wrong, the BM exotic talent effects speed of all pet attacks. So yeah, it would be a BM nerf.


Can't imagine it would apply to the pet's autoattack, but if this hits Basic Attacks (Claw/Bite/etc) this is actually a fairly substantial nerf. Especially as we're picking up lots more Crit/Haste and Basic Attacks are firing a lot closer to "on cooldown" than they used to.

halabar wrote:To be fair, there are some other buffs on the PTR for hunters overall, but the changes are pulling BM down to the others and pushing the other specs up.

Ran femaledwarf.com on my gear/talents/etc, and SV is now slightly less that 2% behind BM.


I don't mind this at all actually, provided that BM gets something in return to close the gap with Serpent Spread.

It's just that Hunters were ... not great on the overall charts last time I looked (though it's been a while). I'm more concerned about the spread between BM and Frost (for example) than between BM and SV. *shrug*
Most people want the wealth produced by a society with limited government distributed to them more generously by bigger government.
Jabari
 
Posts: 714
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:46 am

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Flex » Wed May 08, 2013 9:54 am

Frost's simed potential is so far ahead of what people play it at it is silly. Same with BM. May sim high but its real world performance is often worse than other specs.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 4677
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Jabari » Wed May 08, 2013 10:07 am

Flex wrote:Frost's simed potential is so far ahead of what people play it at it is silly. Same with BM. May sim high but its real world performance is often worse than other specs.


Any idea why? I don't have a mage, but I can understand those running low "IRL" - small position adjustments kill spells in progress, and the level 90 talents all look like a total PITA to manage optimally.

I don't get why BM would be substantially lower than sim - it's a relatively easy spec to play, and you can move around all you want and not lose dps. The only thing I can think of would be if the pet is losing contact with the target a lot - maybe Blink Strikes would help with that a bit. *shrug*

Hmm, maybe because BM has a lot of instants and there's more "gaps" between shots on those than chain-casting timed spells?
Most people want the wealth produced by a society with limited government distributed to them more generously by bigger government.
Jabari
 
Posts: 714
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:46 am

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Flex » Wed May 08, 2013 10:24 am

Frost and BM have a stigma of low DPS so people don't play them. Selection bias is a very real thing.

Sims have some uses, but real world DPS rankings isn't one of them.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 4677
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Flex » Wed May 08, 2013 10:43 am

Worldie wrote:Well it's hardly a PvE nerf, since all the pet abilities are used for CC or control and have no effect on damage.


Going through holinka's twitter feed and it is basically PvE abilities have had their cooldowns reduced. CC abilities have had their cooldowns increased. Exotic Beast had the blanket cooldown reduction removed.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 4677
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby bldavis » Wed May 08, 2013 12:23 pm

Flex wrote:Frost and BM have a stigma of low DPS so people don't play them. Selection bias is a very real thing.

Sims have some uses, but real world DPS rankings isn't one of them.

i dont play it cause i dont like the style, and unless it is leaps and bounds above surv, ill play the spec i like
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 6111
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Jabari » Wed May 08, 2013 2:34 pm

Flex wrote:Going through holinka's twitter feed and it is basically PvE abilities have had their cooldowns reduced. CC abilities have had their cooldowns increased. Exotic Beast had the blanket cooldown reduction removed.

Well, if that's the case I guess it's ok. Of course, they're going to forget about 25% or so of stuff they should reduce, but whatever. *shrug* Just surprised that the "remove blanket 30%" has been datamined but (for example) a CD change on Spirit Mend hasn't been.

Flex wrote:Frost and BM have a stigma of low DPS so people don't play them. Selection bias is a very real thing.

Not sure exactly how this applies to/answers my question. Are you saying that it's only "bad players" (relatively) that get logged in the "top 100 parses" or whatever?

I also don't know how BM in particular has a "bad spec" stigma right now - it's been top (or equal to SV) single-target hunter spec for quite some time now. *shrug* (Unless it still has the "noob spec" stigma that it did since, oh, release...)
Most people want the wealth produced by a society with limited government distributed to them more generously by bigger government.
Jabari
 
Posts: 714
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:46 am

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Nooska » Thu May 09, 2013 1:29 am

Exotic Beasts does NOT apply to basic attacks and autoattacks - everything else though.

As to the difference with simmed BM and actual BM - the sims clearly overvalue haste, and all the high simming results are haste builds - this does not translate into real world gain because most people will still be doing the 6 second minicycle (which is the best for most consistent dps, and with the least amount of risk of failing).

Also, the sim results for BM being thrown around all include complete heroic TF sets...

BM has had quite an amount of people switching to it (of t he imn/maxers that go to 0.01% and don't realize playstyle figures in) - and a lot of those are former MM haste addicts, that want haste to be the absolute best stat at all costs, while being used to a 10 second cycle with loads more room to use and actual priorty system (there just isn't room in the BM cycle to use actual priority, its a priority subset that gets used at specific points in the cycle)
Main Characters:
Nooska, Blood Elf BM/SV Hunter on Argent Dawn (EU)
Morosin, Bloody freezing orc death knight on Argent Dawn (EU)
Niisca, Shady forsaken "priest" on Argent Dawn (EU)

Keeper Emeritus of the BM hunters guide on Elitist Jerks and the wowhead version untill patch 5.3.
User avatar
Nooska
 
Posts: 1588
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:55 am

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Archeth » Thu May 09, 2013 3:05 am

Jabari wrote:
Flex wrote:Frost and BM have a stigma of low DPS so people don't play them. Selection bias is a very real thing.

Not sure exactly how this applies to/answers my question. Are you saying that it's only "bad players" (relatively) that get logged in the "top 100 parses" or whatever?

Not only, but mostly. The selection bias is that there's no equal amount of skilled, competitive players parsing all three specs. Most top hunters choose to play SV/MM because they're slightly ahead in sims or because BM is "known" to be the low DPS options or whatever.

So even if BM might perform close to SV/MM in theory, the parses won't show that because people still playing BM are less competitive/geared/skilled players, and the gap will appear larger than it really is. And then even fewer hunters will play BM because according to parses, BM sucks.
Image
Archeth
 
Posts: 183
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 4:14 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu May 09, 2013 4:47 am

Does Frost still have a higher skill cap than the other Mage specs? It certainly seemed that way in Cataclysm, more effort for less reward.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 4905
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Worldie » Thu May 09, 2013 5:01 am

Don't think so, it's very easy to play right now. Spam 1 button, press button 2 and 3 when they light up, repeat.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 8778
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu May 09, 2013 5:22 am

You don't have to manage your FoF charges, bank one at all times for Brain Freeze procs, weave in Water Elemental's Freeze on cooldown without wasting charges? And what about Frost Bomb?
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 4905
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby halabar » Thu May 09, 2013 8:21 am

Will be interesting to see the ilvl jump on various toons once the patch hits and we have the much cheaper valor upgrading. The annoyance here for guilds like mine is that the better people will get a lot better quickly, being able to upgrade 8 items 8 ilvls that first week, and others will have no improvement at all...

Need to get off my butt and start capping my spriest again so she's at 3000 when the patch hits.
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 6557
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Chunes » Thu May 09, 2013 9:08 am

So, hala, or anyone else who cares to respond, what's the tl;dr for your weekly grind?

What do you do to cap your various points, what points do you cap, then what do you do with the points when you have them?

Also, how do the lesser charms/runes whatever fit into it all?

I am starting to get the itch to get my DK some pve gear, but I'm pretty clueless as to what the most efficient method is to do so.
User avatar
Chunes
 
Posts: 986
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 3:46 pm

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Nooska » Thu May 09, 2013 9:37 am

Archeth wrote:
Jabari wrote:
Flex wrote:Frost and BM have a stigma of low DPS so people don't play them. Selection bias is a very real thing.

Not sure exactly how this applies to/answers my question. Are you saying that it's only "bad players" (relatively) that get logged in the "top 100 parses" or whatever?

Not only, but mostly. The selection bias is that there's no equal amount of skilled, competitive players parsing all three specs. Most top hunters choose to play SV/MM because they're slightly ahead in sims or because BM is "known" to be the low DPS options or whatever.

So even if BM might perform close to SV/MM in theory, the parses won't show that because people still playing BM are less competitive/geared/skilled players, and the gap will appear larger than it really is. And then even fewer hunters will play BM because according to parses, BM sucks.

This might have been true if BM actually simmed lower than SV7MM, fact is BM has simmed (and performed) as top spec for all of MoP, excluding heavy aoe fights (or trash) where SV could deliver a beat down due to instant SrS damage.

The actual issue for BM is pet pathing (nothing to do with skills) and pet unfriendly fights (despite designing 1 or more class specs that are heavily pet dependant they stilld esignfights where pets are a liability).
Main Characters:
Nooska, Blood Elf BM/SV Hunter on Argent Dawn (EU)
Morosin, Bloody freezing orc death knight on Argent Dawn (EU)
Niisca, Shady forsaken "priest" on Argent Dawn (EU)

Keeper Emeritus of the BM hunters guide on Elitist Jerks and the wowhead version untill patch 5.3.
User avatar
Nooska
 
Posts: 1588
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:55 am

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Bellanka » Thu May 09, 2013 10:22 am

Chunes wrote:So, hala, or anyone else who cares to respond, what's the tl;dr for your weekly grind?

What do you do to cap your various points, what points do you cap, then what do you do with the points when you have them?

Also, how do the lesser charms/runes whatever fit into it all?

I am starting to get the itch to get my DK some pve gear, but I'm pretty clueless as to what the most efficient method is to do so.


T/W/Th - Heroic Dungeon before raid + raid boss valor. Friday, cap off remaining valor on main w/ Champions of the Thunder King weekly quest (and Tomes of Valor off rares!) and another dungeon or two with guildies.

Sunday: Run ToT LFR and do Weekly Champions of Thunder Quest (and Tomes from Rares!) to cap Valor on alt. 720 Valor because of 50% buff from capping main. Run heroics/Scenarios while waiting for Queues if there's a wait. Second cap.

Both toons still sitting on a few hundred Lesser Charms, so I don't have to worry about that right away. I'll likely do some pet battles here and there while traveling just to keep them trickling in, depending on how many charms level 90+s will drop in the open world. Otherwise I'll find a good farming spot and AoE farm with guildies.
Evangelyna
Raid Leader/Main Tank
SWARM, Alterac Mountains
Bellanka
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:15 am

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Chunes » Thu May 09, 2013 10:25 am

Thanks Bellanka!
User avatar
Chunes
 
Posts: 986
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 3:46 pm

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Jabari » Thu May 09, 2013 10:26 am

Chunes wrote:So, hala, or anyone else who cares to respond, what's the tl;dr for your weekly grind?


Goals for week (PvE):
- 1000 VP (asap, so that alts get 1.5x)
- 50 LC for runes
- a Key to the treasure scenario
- All possible SPA rep, so Champions quest and the 4 ToT LFR sections.
- Nalak, Sha/Galleon if needed. Oondasta if possible, but those groups don't form often on my server.

For VP, I start on Tuesday and do the following:
- Go to Thunder Isle, starts one set of the dailies there (30 LC). Check for rares - if you see one and it's not engaged throw a mention into General and wait a bit to see if anyone else shows up before killing it. (Once someone does this, most people will reciprocate).
- Only kill rares until you get a Key, ignore them afterward unless you're right next to it. Make sure you get at least one though, even if you get a Key questing earlier as the first always gives you a Ritual Stone.
- Do [Champions of the Thunder King] (150 VP, 5 LC, 300 SPA rep) You don't need a tank for this if you have a warlock or hunter - the pets can tank those just fine. Do the lightning guy in the center, then the direhorn in the cave and the spirit guy on the island right near there (that spawns the add you ignore).
- Get in a Nalak group while there. They're running constantly early in the week, and you really only need 15 people for it.
- While there (esp. if DPS), queue a heroic, ToT LFR, and scenario. All 3 of these give 210+ VP total.
- Do the Treasure run if you have <= 6 Elder Charms, else just save the key.

If you're still short LC after finishing the Isle dailies, then the fastest way to get them are either Golden Lotus or Klaxxi dailies (if you've opened enough of them). Or, you can do pet battles while waiting in the LFR queue and get LC that way.

Subsequent days: Do a scenario and heroic when you get the double-valor for them, and LFR or real raids until you're VP capped for the week. Doesn't take long really - I'm usually at 1000 on Thursday each week for my main.

Chunes wrote:I am starting to get the itch to get my DK some pve gear, but I'm pretty clueless as to what the most efficient method is to do so.


It a new 90 or a PvP char? PvP stuff is good for PvE now - just go run the treasure scenario and get your 15 Elder Charms and plow through LFR using a coin on every fight :)
Most people want the wealth produced by a society with limited government distributed to them more generously by bigger government.
Jabari
 
Posts: 714
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:46 am

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Bellanka » Thu May 09, 2013 10:33 am

Chunes wrote:Thanks Bellanka!


You're welcome! You can also run LFR for valor instead of Heroics, but I don't have the time/patience for it and my main doesn't need anything from it. I'm pretty time limited so I try to do what I can for the fastest caps with least amount of time involved.

Jabari wrote:- Nalak, Sha/Galleon if needed. Oondasta if possible, but those groups don't form often on my server.


Try using OpenRaid(.us? I don't recall, it's a Favorite in my browser) - I almost always find a Sha/Galleon/Nalak group within minutes of looking for my alt. Oon you might need to be a lot pickier, but my server/faction's pop is too low to get Oon most weeks. OpenRaid is a huge hassle saver, because it means I'm not the one putting it together.
Last edited by Bellanka on Thu May 09, 2013 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Evangelyna
Raid Leader/Main Tank
SWARM, Alterac Mountains
Bellanka
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:15 am

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Chunes » Thu May 09, 2013 10:36 am

Decent PvP gear, been 90 for probably about a month so I already am full honor and 2pc conquest + conq weapon.

Maybe tonight I'll look into this treasure scenario dealy. I have literally done 0 pve except for a handful of nalak/galleon since I dinged 90.
User avatar
Chunes
 
Posts: 986
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 3:46 pm

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Bellanka » Thu May 09, 2013 10:40 am

Chunes wrote:Decent PvP gear, been 90 for probably about a month so I already am full honor and 2pc conquest + conq weapon.

Maybe tonight I'll look into this treasure scenario dealy. I have literally done 0 pve except for a handful of nalak/galleon since I dinged 90.


Your best bet is that scenario.

Don't worry about finishing it - just open all the chests you can get to safely. Prioritize big chests for extra keys to use at the end, as those can drop extra Mogu Runes. But the regular chests drop Greater Charms. I average 12-17 a run. You can then xserver normal modes from last tier with OpenRaid or just use them in the old LFRs to get PVE gear faster.

It makes gearing alts a lot less painful.
Evangelyna
Raid Leader/Main Tank
SWARM, Alterac Mountains
Bellanka
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:15 am

Re: Patch 5.3 Notes

Postby Jabari » Thu May 09, 2013 10:55 am

Nooska wrote:This might have been true if BM actually simmed lower than SV/MM, fact is BM has simmed (and performed) as top spec for all of MoP, excluding heavy aoe fights (or trash) where SV could deliver a beat down due to instant SrS damage.


Actually, BM was top for most/all of Cata as well. If any of them deserve a stigma right now it's MM - that didn't just sim the worst of the hunter specs, it was the worst DPS spec for a while among all classes (probably including Holy Priests in Chastise).

Bellanka wrote:Try using OpenRaid - I almost always find a Sha/Galleon/Nalak group within minutes of looking for my alts. Oon you might need to be a lot pickier, but my server/faction's pop is too low to get Oon most weeks. OpenRaid is a huge hassle saver, because it means I'm not the one putting it together.


Hmm, may have to try that for Oon. I can usually get in Galleon/Sha groups with all of my 4 chars that still need those, but didn't get Oon at all last week with anyone. Only got into one group, then wiped twice and the group fell apart.

Chunes wrote:Decent PvP gear, been 90 for probably about a month so I already am full honor and 2pc conquest + conq weapon.

Maybe tonight I'll look into this treasure scenario dealy. I have literally done 0 pve except for a handful of nalak/galleon since I dinged 90.


Ah you're plenty good enough to jam through the LFRs then. Just go get a key from the rares on Thunder Isle and get your Elder Charms. :)

I usually just try to strip clean the first room:
- Enter the room, open the couple on the right (not left, yet), and the ones near the lightning pillar.
- Dodge center statues falling on you, open the ones in their feet. Head to the left (just behind the first set of lightning pillars) - climb up onto the high area there, open up everything up top, drop down behind, and open that stuff.
- You'll come out back at the entrance again, on the left side. Open the small ones on that side, get past the lightning pillars and statues. There are "cubbyholes" on both sides with a few boxes, open up everything on both sides.
- You can (sometimes?) get up onto the high area on the right side (before the 2nd set of lightning pillars) by climbing boxes but I don't always get up there. It's good if you can, though, there are usually a couple of the big boxes up there.
- Get everything in reach past the 2nd set of lightning pillars and pull the lever (left side of the steps to the next room).
- In the hallway, climb the boxes on the left side (at the start), open those up there, jump down into the next room on the far side.
- If I still have some time (1 min +, but I usually don't), I run directly to the next set of stairs - dodge tiles, caster mobs, sentry totems. Climb the stairs, then jump over the rail on the "right" side (looking at the door to the 3rd room). It's easy to climb up to where the big statue is there and there's a ton of stuff to open without having to fight anything.
- Time out, use the small ritual keys, and enjoy your 12+ Elder Charms! :)

Bellanka wrote:as those can drop extra Mogu Runes

Whoa - really? I've _never_ seen that, and I usually get 1 or 2 ritual-keys a run. I always just get Elder Charms/tons of gold/rep scrolls/Great Panda Banquets from those.
Most people want the wealth produced by a society with limited government distributed to them more generously by bigger government.
Jabari
 
Posts: 714
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:46 am

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest