Unsuccesful with Heroics, is it me or my healer?

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby Makaijin » Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:05 pm

As said above, heroics, unlike normal, isn't just about the healer and tank. I did a SH run about 2 weeks ago, and for the first time in a long while we are wiping pretty bad. It was late that night, as only myself and a guildie resto druid I regularly run with wanted to do heroics. We pugged all 3 of the dps. We had a rogue, lock and an elemental shammy. Well I wanted 3 aoe, but it was like 3am server time. Well long story short, we end up wiping alot in the big rooms from the entrance to the first boss. DPS was sorely lacking. The casters took too long to die even with concentrated DPS. Our druid simply ran out of mana before the rest of of melee were finished off because he had to use regrowth too many times because the caster weren't dying fast enough. I think he ended up spamming Healing Touch in the end.

What frustrated me the most, was only the shammy had decent gear (mix of kara and badge) while the other 2 were in half greens. After this run, I have just realised that lowering the heroic key requirements to honored was the biggest no no on blizzard's part. When it was still revered, at least by the time you had revered rep for that particular faction, you would have at least 2-3 blues from that instance, unless you were really unlucky. Now I have to make it a habit to armoury every pug before I even invite them. Thank god for a having large guild so I don't have to pug every often.
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Postby Njorde » Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:49 pm

Thanks for all the info Ratiken. I have yet to post an armory link... been getting home from work, and playing till bed, then work again... Anyways, I now have 511 def and 94.14 avoidance, with 11.5k health unbuffed. Is it possible to get the other 10 points of avoidance through consumables? Or should I trade out def/stam gems for agil/ dodge?

I can see what you mean with having a priest heal. I have done H BF with a priest and it was easy, I had me, a mage, 2 shadow priests, and a holy priest. Needless to say we ended up barely using sheep except on the big pulls bc of the amount of resist Mind Control was getting, and it sucked having to grab the threat off the priests. We got through there with a few wipes. But not half as many if I had my pally healer.

He has gotten better and have been doing some regular runs, wearing my SD gear and chain pulling. Tonight I will be trying him again in H SP and see how he does. ]

What Makaijin had said about people going to heroics undergeared. That can be said about normal runs too... I mean I know my wife (mage) is gonna be ontop of the dps, bc I pull whole groups-2 groups at a time, and tell her exactly when she can let loose(Fire Mage=Mobs dead =P). I also have her use her dragon's breath when the healer (again with undergeared people) cant keep up. But there are people that will be so low on dps, on normal runs, I have gotten to the point to where, I only need to salv my wife and put wisdom on me for normal runs.

I cant even imagine when I was undergeared as these guys are to even think about stepping into a heroic.

IMO Blizz should raise the requirements back to Revered, it isnt hard to get there. Or change it to wear an item drops off the last boss on normal instances for that faction (i.e Cenarion Expedition(Coilfang Instances)), which would be lootable by everyong in the party and after 'X' of (item dropped) you would be eligible for the heroic key.

That would keep people from farming honor through quests and such.
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Postby Exodius » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:52 am

ratiken wrote:Destructive criticism welcome.

7 As you are backing up, activate Holy Shield.
8 Lay down a Consecration.

11 Prioritize Holy Shield OVER Consecration, and keep HS up at all times.

If you change the order of this, casting consercration and then holy shield... you might lose one or two ticks of consercration, but it will be a whole lot longer until the two clash, instead of every single time the cooldowns come up.

As for Blizz reducing the requirements for enterances to heroics. It's been said before, let me say it again...

They did this because of alts. If you already have a character that is fully keyed for heroics, it's pretty boring running instances just for rep when you can buy/make crafted goods and world drops that are of better quality.

It's meant to speed up the time people can run instances of the right needs for them. Even if you ignore the alt arguement, I am sure we all went through a time when we had got pretty much every good drop we need from an instance with a faction, yet don't have revered. There was always one or two factions that needed to be grinded just to get a key for an instance you should be ready for.

Yes, it does result in idiots in green gear thinking they can clear Heroic Arcatraz, but it also means good players can get in and do challenging stuff at a better pace.

It's not all awful. Just don't run with undergeared people, and don't invite them. Be polite about it though, no one likes a stuck up know it all. :?
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Postby Frickit » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:29 pm

Some healers just plain suck. Im sure some tanks suck too as well as dps but its hard for me to contemplate since I can tank all day with shit dpsers all I care about is the quality of the healer. And PUG healers mostly SUCK. You should make sure that your uncrittable for heroics, tankpoints is useful for a quick check.
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Postby ratiken » Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:20 am

94ish avoidance and 11.5 unbuffed is a great start!

When I was at your level, I had more avoidance but a bit less HP.

I generally gem for stamina, plain and simple. Starting with Solid Azure Moonstones and upgrading to Solid Stgar of Elune's when I could afford.

Also, I recommend enchanting for stamina, other than gloves = 2% threat, weapon = +40 spl dmg, and cloak = 12 dodge.

Clefthide leg armor on the legs is a must. grab avoidance inscriptions for shoulder (scryer/aldor) and head (Keepers of Time)

The first badge purchase should be for 15 badges = Libram of Repentance as that is 5.33% block when HS is up.

You'll slowly get gear upgrades as you progress and you'll find that you stall out around 100%, since every upgrade you get will be more of a tradeoff. You'll increase your stamina, but only trade one avoidance stat for another.

I had to upgrade about 5 pieces to get from 99% to 103%, kept jumping up and down.

I'm going to go ahead and repeat what everyone has already done and list every single item I wore when I broke uncrushable. Sorry to those who don't like repetition, but this is my first hand account of what I was wearing (cause I'm gonna go to the bank and put all my old gear on) when I hit uncrushable with no buffs whatsoever.

BTW... on your note about agility/def... don't ever stack agility. it provides a nice dodge bonus, but in my experience is never worth thinking about. Your avoidance will come from block rating and dodge rating mostly. If you have something... like... Gaunlets of Dissension... They do give you 1.01% dodge with Kings... but they are still inferior to even Felsteel Gloves. Obviously they provide less avoidance, by almost a whole 1%... but you don't need it on your gloves and the extra stamina you can get with Felsteel is less expensive than the agility.

Anyways... I'm a rambler. Here's my list. I got every single item from non-heroics, other than the ones specified. There are other ways to get uncrushable.. but this worked for me.

BTW... For badges, I grabbed the libram, then the legs, then the chest just today. I will not regret my decision I guarantee you.

BTW... To get the absolute best head gear available to a tankadin... period, at your stage... You must be an engineer.

Helm - Tankatronic Goggles - KoT head inscription - Engineering - 1 Primal Nether - BoP

Neck - Strength of the Untamed - CE Rep

Shoulders - Spaulders of the Righteous - 1 stam, 1 dodge gem - 1st level scryers inscription - Botanica

Cloak - Cloak of Eternity - 12 dodge enchant - Auction House about 100g

Chest - Breastplate of the Righteous - 3 stam gems - stam enchant - Steamvault I think

Bracers - Bracers of the Green Fortress - stam enchant - Crafted about 400g

Gloves - Dauntless Handguards - 2% threat enchant - Q reward from Shattered Halls 1st boss

Waist - Sha'tari Vindicator's Waistguard - Q reward from something consortium related

Legs - Unwavering Legguards - stam gems, clefthide leg armor - HEROIC badge item (75)

Feet - Flesh Beast's Metal Greaves - stam enchant - Q reward from a mana tombs escort quest, very easy

Ring 1 - Heavy Adamantite Ring - no avoidance from this (very sub par ring, just never upgraded it)

Ring 2 - Andormu's Tear - Q reward from a Caverns of Time quest series involving completing Black Morass, also nets you like 8000 KoT rep

Trinket 1 - Goblin Rocket Launcher - no avoidance and optional, but huge stamina and pulling help, also just plain awesome and fun

Trinket 2 - Dabiri's Enigma - Q reward from killing a guy in netherstorm named Dimensious I think. group quest. great trinket you'll likely not upgrade until you get Figurine of the Colossus, which has never dropped for me in Shattered Halls

Libram - Libram of Repentance - HEROIC BADGE 15 of them.
Shield - Crest of the Sha'Tar if you can spare the avoidance at this point. Otherwise Aegis of the Sunbird.
Weapon - Crystalforged Sword - gives 1.4% block chance. Alternative is the Arena S1 Mace, or Continuum Blade. Either one will mean you need to make up the 1.4% avoidance.

I'm wearing all this stuff right now as I write this... and I sit at 1.15% avoidance OVER uncrushable without kings.

Now grnated, I've got nethercleft leg armor at this point, and the better scryers inscription... But you get the idea it's right about the uncrushable level without those upgrades.

It's not the ideal set, which would be the figuring of colossus and Jade-Skull Breastplate just to mention 2... but it's all easy to get.

And you WILL be uncrushable with this stuff or if not, for sure if you switch out 1 stam gem for a dodge.

also, with this set the way it's on my atm.. I have 491 defense, and 14,149 armor with devotion, which I tank with.

like I said you can gain about .4% avoidance with the Aegis of the Sunbird shield if needed. :)

Currently, I have 12,967 HP in this gear too.

Peace out, hope this helps you out a bit :) PS, +20 agility food is nice with kings to help you get uncrushable... but try not to count on it.

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Postby Nemuria » Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:19 am

Since they lowered the key reputation, it has become less fun to run heroics when you have already reached exalted. Most ppl coming out blue/green from nowhere and expecting you to rush them.
Yet healer is a key and you can't fake in heroics. DPS are also expecting to be healed.
Better send our fresh 70 to Grull's and Magtheridon's and cross fingers.
What I do and others is rerolling, trying to progress fast but with wisdom (knowing your limits). Yet only Cavern of time key missing while it took months for my main toon to get to Revered. Blizzard It is a shame!

I had the chance to play with 9K-10K mana pool healers, and they get offensed when I use 1st aid. Never asked their +heal bonus, you have to trust ppl sometimes.
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