Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Promdates » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:43 pm

Foolosophy wrote:https://sites.google.com/site/matlabadin/5-2/52_CW_all.png

I don't really know how to read the weapon chart sorted by dps. Is it just the yellow lines to look at? Or is the highest dps = the one with the blue + yellow + green line which goes the most to the right?


If you're like any other raiding tank, you probably have 7.5% hit and 15% expertise. If you do, you look at the yellow mark (the important one). I believe he said that the other bars were for seeing how well the increase of hit/exp the weapons gave via rating/racial, how that compared. Basically, look at the yellow one. Here's the code sorted by DPS for the 7.5%/15% bracket.

Code: Select all
|                                                   |      |   cfg3 |  cfg3 |
| Weapon                                            | ilvl |    DPS |   HPS |
| Ook's Hozen Slicer (Heroic)                       |  463 | 136041 | 40886 |
| Inelava, Spirit of Inebriation                    |  476 | 137251 | 41223 |
| Elegion, the Fanged Crescent (Raid Finder)        |  476 | 137405 | 41339 |
| Acid-Spine Bonemace (Raid Finder)                 |  502 | 137517 | 39451 |
| Scimitar of Seven Stars (Raid Finder)             |  483 | 137607 | 41269 |
| Krol Scimitar                                     |  476 | 137681 | 41263 |
| Kilrak, Jaws of Terror (Raid Finder)              |  483 | 137841 | 41371 |
| Qon's Flaming Scimitar (Raid Finder)              |  502 | 137910 | 40971 |
| Elegion, the Fanged Crescent                      |  489 | 138070 | 41394 |
| Scimitar of Seven Stars                           |  496 | 138404 | 41361 |
| Kilrak, Jaws of Terror                            |  496 | 138526 | 41412 |
| Kilrak, Jaws of Terror (LFR+Gem)                  |  483 | 138614 | 41658 |
| Acid-Spine Bonemace                               |  522 | 138735 | 39519 |
| Worldbreaker's Stormscythe (Raid Finder)          |  502 | 138745 | 41419 |
| Elegion, the Fanged Crescent (Heroic)             |  502 | 138776 | 41430 |
| Do-tharak, the Swordbreaker (Raid Finder)         |  502 | 139096 | 41458 |
| Acid-Spine Bonemace (Thunderforged)               |  528 | 139146 | 39541 |
| Scimitar of Seven Stars (Heroic)                  |  509 | 139175 | 41406 |
| Qon's Flaming Scimitar                            |  522 | 139188 | 41036 |
| Kilrak, Jaws of Terror (Heroic)                   |  509 | 139293 | 41452 |
| Kilrak, Jaws of Terror (+Gem)                     |  496 | 139300 | 41699 |
| Acid-Spine Bonemace (Heroic)                      |  535 | 139656 | 39569 |
| Worldbreaker's Stormscythe                        |  522 | 140016 | 41484 |
| Kilrak, Jaws of Terror (Heroic+Gem)               |  509 | 140068 | 41739 |
| Qon's Flaming Scimitar (Heroic)                   |  535 | 140155 | 41084 |
| Worldbreaker's Stormscythe (Thunderforged)        |  528 | 140445 | 41506 |
| Do-tharak, the Swordbreaker                       |  522 | 140562 | 41610 |
| Worldbreaker's Stormscythe (Heroic)               |  535 | 140977 | 41533 |
| Do-tharak, the Swordbreaker (Heroic)              |  535 | 141543 | 41659 |
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:31 pm

Promdates wrote:
Foolosophy wrote:https://sites.google.com/site/matlabadin/5-2/52_CW_all.png

I don't really know how to read the weapon chart sorted by dps. Is it just the yellow lines to look at? Or is the highest dps = the one with the blue + yellow + green line which goes the most to the right?


If you're like any other raiding tank, you probably have 7.5% hit and 15% expertise. If you do, you look at the yellow mark (the important one). I believe he said that the other bars were for seeing how well the increase of hit/exp the weapons gave via rating/racial, how that compared. Basically, look at the yellow one.


Or, reading the text in the post containing said graph....
Theck wrote:In practice, you'll probably be most interested in the first two configurations. A weapon with hit and expertise will let you reforge for other stats elsewhere, so the rank ordering of configuration #1 (or #2 if you have a relevant racial expertise bonus) is most applicable. Configuration #3 is there for cases where you're over-capped and can't make use of all of an items hit or expertise, which is rare. It's also applicable to situations where you'll be reforging to those caps anyway, and reforging all excess rating into non-DPS stats (dodge, parry, mastery).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby econ21 » Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:50 am

theckhd wrote:In practice, you'll probably be most interested in the first two configurations. A weapon with hit and expertise will let you reforge for other stats elsewhere, so the rank ordering of configuration #1 (or #2 if you have a relevant racial expertise bonus) is most applicable. Configuration #3 is there for cases where you're over-capped and can't make use of all of an items hit or expertise, which is rare. It's also applicable to situations where you'll be reforging to those caps anyway, and reforging all excess rating into non-DPS stats (dodge, parry, mastery).


Maybe I am misunderstanding, but for capped tanks (ie most of us) wouldn't the true number fall somewhere between configurations 1 and 3? Configuration 3 assumes you get no dps benefit from any excess stats when many of us would reforge to haste. However, configuration 1 probably overvalues the reforges, because haste gives lower dps than hit or expertise when those are below 7.5%.

On another point, in the next iteration, it might be good to treat weapon dps as a stat and compute it's value in the same way you do for other stats. It would help readers evaluate the benefit of weapon upgrades. Dps sims like Simcraft often evaluate weapon dps as a stat in that way.

I'm also curious how does weapon dps scale with vengeance? Does it scale well like hit/exp/haste or scarcely at all like strength?

[I make these comments after trying to reply to Klaudanaus's question in the gear help thread about upgraded LFR Kilrak vs the 502 scythe.]
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:43 am

The true value of a weapon will depend on all of the rest of your gear, because it's rare that you can reforge to reach hit and exp cap exactly. So the actual value will vary based on how much of that stat allocation gets wasted, as well as what your other stats are like (ex: the rankings may differ fairly significantly if you compared 0% haste to 30% haste). What I try and give are upper and lower bounds. If weapon A is ahead of weapon B in configuration #1 but behind in config #3, then the exact ordering will obviously depend on how much of that hit/exp is getting converted to haste effectively. If A is ahead in both, then it's just clearly better.

Adding weapon DPS to the stat sim is sort of meaningless, as it's not itemized the same way as other stats. What's 10 item points worth of weapon DPS, after all? For that to be of any use, you'd need to figure out how much weapon DPS an upgrade gives you and add together all of the individual contributions from the strength and secondary stats, which is essentially what the weapon sim already tells you.

Weapon DPS isn't likely to be a huge factor anyhow, as it doesn't scale at all with Vengeance and only affects Crusader Strike.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Schroom » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:42 am

I see a couple of Progression tanks using Capacitive Primal Diamond (http://www.wowhead.com/item=95346) as their meta. how big is the DPS gain for prot pallys and would it really be worth not using that juicy tankgem?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby daishan » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:57 am

I'm running about 28% haste and the dps meta gem was ending up as 9-11% of my total dps.
To me that looks like it's worth it for all but the hardest hitting physical bosses.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Schroom » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:19 am

just to compare, I took a look at Fela from Moonz (http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/character/d ... a/advanced), he played World Rank 1 Durumu 10 HM last week.

he got 42.40% haste unbuffed. dealt 235k DPS on Durumu 10 HM.

lightning strike did 10.4% of his DPS hitting 35 times in 5:39min with an average of 176k damage.

so I guess haste has no great impact on it, only vengeance, doesn't it?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby daishan » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:16 am

I thought all RPPM procs befitted from haste?

Fela actually has 42 Lightning Strikes 35 hits 5 crits and 2 blocks, which gives him 7.43 ppm
From one of my random 9 min logs I got 57 Lightning Strikes which works out at 6.33 ppm
Far to small a sample size to prove anything ofc.

From my very limited testing I think a conservative estimate of 8% extra dps is safe, after a night of raiding I don't think it dropped to less than that on skada for me.

For any of us that are gemming pure haste gems I think the Capacitive Primal Diamond can make a lot of sense, we've already decided to take a hit to our survivability for more dps.
On a fight like council I think it's especially good as most of the real dangerous dmg is magic so the tank meta isn't as appealing, solo tanking Tortos hm though, it'll be a while before I want to switch out the tank meta for that fight. Now just need to get myself a 2nd tank helm...
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Kihra » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:48 pm

Schroom wrote:I see a couple of Progression tanks using Capacitive Primal Diamond (http://www.wowhead.com/item=95346) as their meta. how big is the DPS gain for prot pallys and would it really be worth not using that juicy tankgem?


Both gems are really good. One gives you a huge boost to DPS and the other gives you a huge boost to survivability. That said, I have found the tank gem too amazing to ignore, but I do 25 Heroic content. My guild is largely past the DPS checks on fights, so I'm just prioritizing surviving now.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Kerriodos » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:50 pm

Kihra wrote:
Schroom wrote:I see a couple of Progression tanks using Capacitive Primal Diamond (http://www.wowhead.com/item=95346) as their meta. how big is the DPS gain for prot pallys and would it really be worth not using that juicy tankgem?


Both gems are really good. One gives you a huge boost to DPS and the other gives you a huge boost to survivability. That said, I have found the tank gem too amazing to ignore, but I do 25 Heroic content. My guild is largely past the DPS checks on fights, so I'm just prioritizing surviving now.


Pretty much my attitude. I plan to grab a duplicate helm at some point so I can swap them in as needed inexpensively, but in the meantime I've defaulted to the tank gem because it is nice. It's not uncommon for me to forgo using Glyphed Divine Protection for something when I see that the gem is proc'd.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:02 am

I plan on getting both eventually, but I'm in the opposite position to Kihra: working on heroic modes, but not past the DPS checks yet. +10% personal DPS outweighs the survivability for me at this point.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Diceone » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:30 am

Going to agree with Kihra on this one, I very much like the tank gem. The little but of rng that stops it from being an extra CD is made up for by the fact that it procs fairly often and amounts to a glyphed DP.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Schroom » Tue May 07, 2013 11:06 pm

Protection

Shield of the Righteous now reduces the physical damage you take by 25, down from 30.


*cough* shouldn't make That big a difference I guess. but they keep trying getting us away from that haste stacking ^^
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Fetzie » Tue May 07, 2013 11:19 pm

Not sure why that would pull us away from haste stacking. That is simply a reaction to the raid dev team putting huge physical hits in the game and ShoR basically meaning we have 100% shield wall uptime for them. So we go from ~50% ShoR to ~45% ShoR...big freaking deal - not really.

The biggest thing for me will likely be me having to go through my guide changing every reference to ShoR's base damage reduction from 30% to 25%. Which will be a pain in the ass.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Kerriodos » Wed May 08, 2013 11:12 am

Fetzie wrote:Not sure why that would pull us away from haste stacking. That is simply a reaction to the raid dev team putting huge physical hits in the game and ShoR basically meaning we have 100% shield wall uptime for them. So we go from ~50% ShoR to ~45% ShoR...big freaking deal - not really.

The biggest thing for me will likely be me having to go through my guide changing every reference to ShoR's base damage reduction from 30% to 25%. Which will be a pain in the ass.


Honestly, I'm not sure I'll notice, practically speaking. When T15 rolled around I was really hesitant to drop the extra 10% from the T14 bonus, but once I did nothing really changed. More reduction is nice, of course, but going from Huge Damage Reduction to Slightly Less Huge Damage Reduction isn't going to be a huge change to adjust to. We're also going to have item upgrades hitting at the same time, which means we'll be gaining more mastery to make up a little of it.

Random thought, based on absolutely nothing but idle musing: could this maybe be a precursor to increasing mastery scaling for the sake of making it more competitive with haste?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby lifeonmars » Wed May 08, 2013 12:50 pm

I don't think we should necessarily jump to conclusions yet, because as far as I know as of right now, the 5% SotR damage reduction nerf has only been discovered by datamining at MMO-Champion and has not appeared in any official patch notes for the PTR.

It's not uncommon for changes to be rapidly released and reverted on the PTR, and it seems strange to me that there has been zero official commentary on this change, versus the huge amount of text generated on the Grand Crusader change.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Kerriodos » Wed May 08, 2013 2:23 pm

Of course not--PTR changes come and go all the time. That said, sometimes it's fun to speculate (though, admittedly, this thread may not be the place for it).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Thu May 09, 2013 1:06 pm

Fetzie wrote:Not sure why that would pull us away from haste stacking.

Because any reduction to the baseline mitigation of SotR nerfs haste, hit, and expertise. You're lowering the effectiveness of SotR while it's up, which necessarily hurts stats that improve its uptime. This should be obvious if you consider the extreme limit: if you drop the baseline mitigation to 0% (and ignore mastery scaling), hit/exp/haste become useless.

That change also leaves mastery more or less unchanged.

lifeonmars wrote:I don't think we should necessarily jump to conclusions yet, because as far as I know as of right now, the 5% SotR damage reduction nerf has only been discovered by datamining at MMO-Champion and has not appeared in any official patch notes for the PTR.

It's not uncommon for changes to be rapidly released and reverted on the PTR, and it seems strange to me that there has been zero official commentary on this change, versus the huge amount of text generated on the Grand Crusader change.

That said, this is one of the potential nerfs they mentioned for 5.2 before they decided on the Grand Crusader change, if my memory is correct. Given gear inflation and higher mastery levels on gear, SotR may just be getting too strong to begin with. This nerf would simultaneously weaken SotR a little to bring us back into line and devalue haste slightly, both of which are likely good things.

I don't think it's going to be enough to reverse the haste-gearing paradigm though.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Klaudandus » Thu May 09, 2013 1:21 pm

theckhd wrote:I don't think it's going to be enough to reverse the haste-gearing paradigm though.


But does the change closes the gap between C/H and C/M?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Fetzie » Thu May 09, 2013 4:18 pm

theckhd wrote:
Fetzie wrote:Not sure why that would pull us away from haste stacking.

Because any reduction to the baseline mitigation of SotR nerfs haste, hit, and expertise. You're lowering the effectiveness of SotR while it's up, which necessarily hurts stats that improve its uptime. This should be obvious if you consider the extreme limit: if you drop the baseline mitigation to 0% (and ignore mastery scaling), hit/exp/haste become useless.

That change also leaves mastery more or less unchanged.


However, in a real world scenario, reducing a (for arguments sake) 100k hit to 50k instead of 45k isn't going to make that much of a difference. What counts is that you have the ShoR buff active in the first place, whether you have a bit more or a bit less reduction isn't going to do much other than reduce the amount the healer overheals you by with their Divine Light/Greater Heal. It is more a change that would be noticeable in the long run, not necessarily about when in the 5-8 second window you have the buff active, and if we cared about the long run over the short-term burst phases that can actually kill us then we'd be gearing for TDR, not for damage control.

While it would, technically, devalue haste slightly, I don't believe that anything much will actually change for the player. I don't think it will mean a change in rotation, it won't mean a change in gearing strategy and it won't mean that our survivability will change much, if at all. If it makes Mastery slightly stronger then that won't change much for most people, as that is the stat they are reforging to if they are already at the hit and expertise caps and the item already has haste on it.

In my opinion it is a very clever and subtle nerf, one that will increase our damage taken slightly, but not one that will mean significant changes to the way we play. And that is what I meant by my comment you responded to.

Anyway, it has yet to be documented in a patch note. The only indication we have that it might be changing is a partial tooltip alteration (that contradicts itself - the base reduction is 25%, but the minimum limit in the new wowdb tooltip is still 30%) that could simply be a parsing error, it definitely wouldn't be the first time that has happened.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Fri May 10, 2013 9:20 pm

While I agree with most of your logic, it doesn't change the fact that in smoothness simulations haste will lose some ground to mastery.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Klaudandus » Sat May 11, 2013 5:31 am

theckhd wrote:While I agree with most of your logic, it doesn't change the fact that in smoothness simulations haste will lose some ground to mastery.


I am guessing we will hopefully see those graphs come 5.3?


Also, read someone on twitter saying that Pally TDR was pretty bad, that what propped pally tanks up was the AM control we have over the flow of the battle. Is this assertion correct?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Sat May 11, 2013 9:04 am

I'll have smoothness simulations done this week, probably. I've been stuck on SoI modeling for a while. With any luck I'll manage to write that blog post this weekend and get it posted Monday, then follow it up with some data later in the week.

I can't really speak to pally TDR vs. other classes, because I haven't looked at the other classes. That said, I'm not sure anyone who understands tanking takes TDR seriously in the first place, so I don't see any reason we'd need to "prop up" our poor TDR. If anything, the entire haste paradigm is about trading useless TDR for very useful AM control.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Klaudandus » Sat May 11, 2013 9:22 am

On the tdr, yeah... I get that, just was wondering if it was a valid assertion or not.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Derrickster » Wed May 15, 2013 3:59 am

I'm extremely confused as to how in the single target rotations CS>J>AS+>HW>cons>AS sims out as slightly more DPS and HPGS then the suggested CS>J>AS>HW>cons. I just can't seem to find any reason the holy power gains would be higher doing this seeing as how HW and cons can't proc grand crusader according to the tooltip. I can't say I've payed very much attention to how hard AS hits compared to HW but the only I can think of here is that it has to do with how the GCDs work out maybe? Can anyone please help me wrap my head around this?
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