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What's up with T15?

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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Nooska » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:33 am

I just want to say that Rhiannon really exemplified what I've been trying to say in regards to "skill" vs "gear" and where people fall on the curve.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby econ21 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:52 am

Nooska wrote:I just want to say that Rhiannon really exemplified what I've been trying to say in regards to "skill" vs "gear" and where people fall on the curve.


Yeah, that was a great post.

I find the arguments about difficulty get unnecessarily worked up. There's obviously a continuous distribution of capability (that depends on various factors like skill, time investment, gear etc) and where Blizzard sets the line in terms of what is required for progression is somewhat arbitrary. It's a case of what the philosopher's call the "paradox of the heap": how many grains of sand constitute a heap? Should Garalon's HP be 10 million higher or lower? Who's to say? It's a judgement call.

People want the line to be drawn at what suits their raid's capabilities: top end what a higher bar; low end, a low bar. That's fair enough, but I find it hard to fault GC's principle in Cata that if significant portions of raiders get stuck on a boss, repeatedly wiping for several weeks, then it might need adjusting. Blizzard want to get a large proportion of the player base progressing through normal and that seems reasonable, both commercially and "for the greater good". It would be good if Blizzard can achieve their goal without the regular nerfs of Cata, as those felt demotivating, but that would require very smart initial tuning by Blizzard.

I know from personal experience that the Firelands nerf was a tremendous boon to the two struggling guilds I was in. One, long suffering, could finally progress beyond Shannox. The other, which had gone defunct, re-emerged from the ashes and started raiding again. The recent 10% nerf was probably what allowed the two guilds to progress beyond Elegon and Garalon respectively.

I think it may be too soon to complain about T15. For players still progressing in T14, I am not sure they should be spending nights wiping on Horridon. It probably makes more sense to finish T14: it may be less frustrating and should be more lucrative in gear. At least that's what we're doing - it's not fast, we tend to progress only one boss per night and only raid once a week. Now we're past Garalon (killed Un'sok last week), I'm hoping we speed up a bit as TES always felt manageable in LFR. (Lei Shi may be a swine, though.)
Last edited by econ21 on Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby twinkfist » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:17 pm

our guild hasn't even attempted to get to horridon yet...buuuut...that's more about us trying to get more gear througj TOES and HOF. we basically didn't raid at all for 6 weeks or longer after the guild i was in fell apart. it formed and then we were behind everyone else.

the nerf to hof and terrace helped us move faster no doubt...but before the nerf...we were on the queen and working on downing her.

anyways...i've enjoyed the raids so far. our old guild died on elegon because our dps wasn't that great, people couldn't kill their sparks and general dumb. sort of reminds me of bc a little...like, it's less forgiving.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Darielle » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:52 pm

Both sides of the argument appear to be seeing things very black and white, when the reality of raiding is far from that. The Methods and Paragons of the world can kill Lei Shen heroic with ilevels of 522-525, massive amounts of time investment and exceptionally high skill levels. More casual, less skilled guilds will inevitably need more gear to kill it - if their ilevel was locked at 522 for the next five months there's a good chance they would never kill it. And I'm talking about heroic guilds with people who have a pretty good idea how to play, but just can't perform at the 99% level consistently pull after pull.


Correct, but these other guilds are not going to get to Heroic Lei Shen next week; they'll get there after months of farming.

Just like the guilds that are currently going through T15 Normal are not really expected to even get TO Lei Shen until about a month before 5.4. LFR won't fully activate until the end of April because Blizzard doesn't expect some of the mid-Heroic raiders to finish Lei Shen off before then.

When talking Garalon's requirement, I can guarantee you that most of the guilds who "struggled" had the complete reversal to this on gear:
"I'll take an example of my warrior's guild compared with my warlock's guild. The warrior guild got 15/16h and had about 505 ilevel going into ToT, while the warlock guild got 3/16h and had about 497 ilevel going into ToT. The former raids 10 hours/week, the latter 6. "

It's why looking at objective requirements such as give a better picture:
"Council's requirements aren't high either. Before they were nerfed, it took something along the lines of an average 90k dps within a 4 minute ish timespan (3*25%*90million health + 90 million health + a couple of million for Loa Spirits - also assuming 3-heal) to do the thing that made the fight TRIVIAL (Kill Sul before he's empowered, or right as he Empowers).

For a 496 raid? Considering you can multidot and cleave to your heart's content? That's not high.
Now it requires around 80k dps. This is still not massively higher than what people could do in 463's here."

To give a better understanding of "what the acceptable bar" is, that kind of objective requirement gives a strong indication. Obviously, if the raid had to perform at 99% level consistently to get things down, it would be overtuned. This? It's around the 60% mark, and less is actually required to pull off the fight (that was for Sul dead before he Empowers at all). That's pretty descriptive of "average".
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby econ21 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:01 pm

I haven't tried them post patch, but there sound like some pretty substantial nerfs to help normal guilds progress:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/8953693

The increase in Garalon's enrage from 7 min to 12 min stands out. I'm hoping the adjustments to Horridon give my guild a leg up. It may be coincidence, but after last week's raid with no progress kills, stuck on Horridon, the sign ups have dropped off and it's not clear we will have 10 raiders show up for the next few weeks.
Last edited by econ21 on Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:22 pm

econ21 wrote:I haven't tried them post patch, but there sound like some pretty substantial nerfs to help normal guilds progress:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/8953693

The increase in Garalon's enrage from 7 min to 12 min stands out. I'm hoping the adjustments to Horridon give my guild a leg up. It may be coincidence, but after last week's raid with no progress kills, stuck on Horridon, the signs have dropped off and it's not clear we will have 10 raiders show up for the next few weeks.


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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby oldboyz » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:54 am

re-activating this threat :D

Here our bilan for the last 3 weeks

just passed the Council yesterday. (rank 40 on wowprogress)

we wiped on it for 2 week+ cause we never had 10 real readeurs available at same time
always 1to2 dps toooo low to allow us to execute to the end the strat
#1 - our worst unlucky folks still having pvp weapon, or bad luck with T14 token
problem is that the vast majority no longer is interested to go again in T14

#2 - recruiting PU is becoming a nightmare
spamming /2 for hours, (even with 1-2days in advance) : no choice, no answer. the few we found were total catastrophic... (even with at least 2/12 xp, 500+ilv : dps were all 60-80k...)
for the laught, we were looking for a dps with BL, found a hunter (ilv 504, xp 2/12), asked it to go BeastMaster even if he dislike, did 60kdps for 1 hour try, always required our Brez joker in the first minut... the laught come when our SP switched to his alt mage, and allowed the hunt to go back to his main spe SV.
5try later : wooping 70kdps!!! recount showing 1% dmg with explosive shots..(main shoot.. should be around 20-30%)



so here our story of a medium raid on a medium serveur (was in top 5 for several exp.)
-no recrut available(while i started campaign for 1month+...i feel alone in space)
-no good PU avaialable

the other thing we noticed is also the disparition of alt raids : we are several with alt and used to raid outside as a PU from time to time. we are now unable to find average raid. our /2 is a pure desert...


wowprogress rank 120 guild in T14
we are now 60 ranked raids in T15...

some says that LFR is enought for more and more people (while at the same time more and more people get upsed with bad mentality in LFR...)


i'm even more convinced the difficulty between LFR/normal/HM is total garbage. i don't know how it impact subscription
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby halabar » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:31 am

Sounds like you need a server transfer if you aren't getting the recruits you need. But it also may simply be there are not as many "hardcore" or "really good" players anymore.

What you may not realize is that what you are talking about with "bad" players doing "60-80k" dps happens at every other level of guilds, just the numbers and expectations change. Had one in my raid last night that won't be invited back, because dps was way below what should be expected. Different number range, but same problem.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Jabari » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:54 am

Hey, where are you guys at now Halabar?

I'm about to beat my head into a wall - two more weeks and we're still 4/16 T14. :(
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby halabar » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:10 am

Jabari wrote:Hey, where are you guys at now Halabar?

I'm about to beat my head into a wall - two more weeks and we're still 4/16 T14. :(


The raid team I'm in is still 10/16 T14, raiding one night a week for 3 hours. Early on the issues were a lot of new toons, people that hadn't raided before, and some undergearing. But last night on Ambershaper again, we had a few really low people, doing 40kish dps on Ambershaper that should have been doing at least ~60k dps based on their gear (a mash macro would have been a major improvement for them). One in particular was failing at every mechanic. I watched this person running away from a living amber, doing a FULL LAP AROUND THE ROOM. /facepalm. Worse yet this person was a hunter, who apparently couldn't pet-tank that living amber. /sigh.

Biggest problem now is we always have a churn of 3-4 new people, so things never quite settle in.

I'm quite happy with the raid leadership and the core group, but those on the edges are really causing problems.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Jabari » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:44 am

Nice! Sounds like you have it together at least.

I'm simply at a loss with my guild. :( We did 3 hours of wipes on Vizier last night - people simply couldn't avoid Attenuation, and the healing seemed a little weak on the tries where we lost at most one person to the disks.

I don't believe it's DPS issue (other than not running the spiral correctly) - we're getting only a single F&V and Convert on those platforms, and 2 Attunes.

I'm (nominally) leading the group. Is there anything in particular I can do extra to try to help people do better?

(Note that kicking people from the raid simply isn't an option - we've had exactly 10 on for the past three weeks.)
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby halabar » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:07 pm

"Together" is relative... :wink:

People have to learn how to move, and find a good healer to give the healers tips. For the movement it's all about camera angle. Other thing on that fight is people need to keep their defensive cooldowns and fears on cooldown.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:21 pm

Well for discs, we used to have a priest who would die continuously to them. During that phase I'd usually try to put sacred shield and hand of sacrifice on her. Sometimes it helped, sometimes it didn't, but it's at least something you can do. Plus I think the discs are physical right? Could always bop two people whom you know are especially bad (I've never actually done that, so not sure if the discs simply bypass bop).

Edit: Another thing with the discs... the closer into melee people are, the easier it is to dance around in the spiral. The further out you get, the more the pattern bounces back in on itself (and the further you have to run to complete a circle). Might want to advise people to move into melee range during that part.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:30 pm

Not too close, as you get one-shot by all the discs hitting you as they emerge. ;)

But yeah, at the right melee range all you have to do is strafe in a circle around the boss. No skill required.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:31 pm

Yeah sorry. Step out about 5-10 yards just as the discs form, then move in as close as possible once they start rotation.
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