Post your Frustrations.

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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby bldavis » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:08 pm

by saying that they mean anyone without healing abilities and/or massive cc options should just not even bother with pvp
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Fenrìr » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:26 pm

econ21 wrote:
Blizzard wrote:Generally when tanks are having fun in PvP, nobody else is.


Grrr. Such a naked statement of Blizzard's obvious hostility to making tanks viable in PvP.

I just can't see the logic - why is having some specs being more defensive than offensive in any way less fun for opponents? It's just means they can be ignored in favor of softer, more dangerous targets. The real challenge for design is in giving tanks tools to prevent them being sidelined - e.g. collision detection, pvp taunting, guarding friends etc.

And such a lack of imagination. There's no good reason tanks can't have fun in PvP without spoiling it for others. Swtor, Warhammer etc managed it fine.

And of course, when frost mages, rogues and pillar hugging druids are having fun in PvP, it has my retadin lying on the floor jiggling uncontrollably, it's such fun for me.




A lot of it has to do with the vengeance that tanks were getting. That's what most people who tank tank viability in pvp know and quite frankly...it wasn't fun. Especially when it was a blood DK...ugh.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Andurin » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:32 pm

Our internal service desk refuses to aknowledge that they fucked up with my phone being callable from outside and now the unwillingness to fix it. Joy >.>
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Shoju » Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:14 am

Nothing like a Good Storm to show you that your UPS backup isn't giving you the time that it was supposed to.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Chunes » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:25 am

econ21 wrote:
Blizzard wrote:Generally when tanks are having fun in PvP, nobody else is.


Grrr. Such a naked statement of Blizzard's obvious hostility to making tanks viable in PvP.


How would you make tanks viable in pvp?
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby benebarba » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:37 am

Chunes wrote:
econ21 wrote:
Blizzard wrote:Generally when tanks are having fun in PvP, nobody else is.


Grrr. Such a naked statement of Blizzard's obvious hostility to making tanks viable in PvP.


How would you make tanks viable in pvp in a balanced way without overhauling the game engine?


FTFY.

a number of 'proposals' that I've seen mentioned are basically 'make wow work differently', which kinda explains why it hasn't happened.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Sagara » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:43 am

A bit annoyed from yesterday's raid, as it felt like some officers were on the warpath, and went on a rant on my two co-tanks. Reasons were mostly valid (not using Skull Banner when requested and lower uptime - 95% vs my 99%), but I found the tone extremely off-putting, as they have proven to be willing to listen and improve and didn't deserve the public stripping down they got.

That combined to growing annoyed at my ideas being constantly being shot down, and general lack of sleep makes for a grumpy paladin. I probably need to play for fun a bit more in the coming weeks and cool it off - if the baby permits.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby econ21 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:59 am

benebarba wrote:
Chunes wrote:
How would you make tanks viable in pvp in a balanced way without overhauling the game engine?


FTFY.

a number of 'proposals' that I've seen mentioned are basically 'make wow work differently', which kinda explains why it hasn't happened.


Minimalist change: let them have vengeance in PvP, if necessary nerfing it for Blood DKs. I played Prot PvP casually when there was vengeance, and I was on the margins of being viable. I probably would have been better going ret, but I was not the complete joke I would be now: good enough to be happy to stay in the spec I preferred, even at a modest cost in effectiveness. I was good against melee, weak against ranged. I was in no way, shape or form, overpowered. The almost complete absence of protadins in arena even with vengeance testifies to that. The vengeance PvP nerf seems to have been driven completely by Blood DKs. (And even then, I am not convinced they were OP - may be not fun, in the way that two healers in 2v2 arena are not fun, but not dominating anything.)

Or more generally, rescale tank damage with/without vengeance. I think MoP nerfed our solo damage too low for no good reason - I don't care much about PvP here, just thinking higher level solo questing. There was nothing excessive about our solo/zero vengeance damage in Wrath.

Moderate change: give tanks an ability to guard team mates (think hand of sacrifice) and/or a pvp taunt (damage penalty if you don't target them).

Blizzard have just decided not try to make tanks viable outside of flag carrying and even then, have done nothing to balance different tanks specs when performing in that role. No RBG team will have any use for a protadin.

It's the not trying that I find frustrating.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby benebarba » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:02 am

The pvp taunt being a damage penalty to not targeting them for some period of time: how would that work (or really: how does it work in similar games)?

I mean, would it auto-target the taunter and mark them for the duration? because if it was just a debuff/buff, even with a warning on your screen, it seems like tabbing around to find the taunter would be pretty rough.

The idea seems pretty neat.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:04 am

ugh, passed a coffer to my alt and it had the last journal I need on my main for the Library Card achieve.....
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Chunes » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:05 am

Re: Prot PvP question

I don't have any good ideas that wouldn't require a significant change to not only the game engine, but the game-play paradigm that sits on top of it.

I think of a game like League of Legends when I think of "pvp tanking" done somewhat right. (For you lol players, I'm speaking about the pure tanks, rammus/amumu/singed to some degree, skarner; not bruisers who are more "tanky damage")

Your tanks in that game are (when mid-endgame built) nearly unkillable without either extreme focus or special "anti-tank" items that do %hp based damage, rather than flat scaling damage. They usually come with skill kits that allow them to disrupt the enemy team through CC, taunts, displacements, etc. Finally, they do not have extreme damage output owing mostly to the balance that provides against their high utility and survivability.

Tanks in this role are a threat in as much as they have a team behind them. If you encounter a tank 1v1 in the wild, all other things equal neither of you will kill the other one in any reasonable amount of time. But combine a team behind a tank and the total threat is greater than the sum of its parts.

How you'd translate that kind of concept into wow, I don't know. I doubt it's even really possible. LoL can get away with this kind of thing because there are something like 100 different champs you can select, numerous items to build and different runes/masteries you can select to further specialize the character.

In wow, a roughly equivalent amount of choices are slapped into far fewer classes multiplied by 3 or 4 for the possible specs you can go. You end up having more skills condensed into a single character than the 4 abilities + one or two high CD item abilities you'd see in a MOBA game like league.

Returning back to the dev comment: I think they're (correctly) prioritizing their development resources on this. The amount of time/effort you'd need to pour into a prot pvp revamp that would be fairly balanced is most likely immense. The return you'd get on that investment is the gratitude and increased player enjoyment of a dire minority of the playerbase (the existing tanks that would pvp as such or the other people who would become pvp tanks), as well as the ire of a much larger group of players (the healers and DPS who would now have to deal with the new prot pvpers)

It's the right choice for the game as a business, doesn't mean I have to like it though.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby halabar » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:37 am

Two toons.. each with 3 LFRs, Oon and Nalak and 3 Mogu tokens this week. All gold or double-gold.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby halabar » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:40 am

Shoju wrote:Nothing like a Good Storm to show you that your UPS backup isn't giving you the time that it was supposed to.


Most are utter garbage. Even the enterprise-scale ones generally fail when you really need them.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:42 am

halabar wrote:Two toons.. each with 3 LFRs, Oon and Nalak and 3 Mogu tokens this week. All gold or double-gold.


I saw that... =/
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby halabar » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:51 am

Klaudandus wrote:
halabar wrote:Two toons.. each with 3 LFRs, Oon and Nalak and 3 Mogu tokens this week. All gold or double-gold.


I saw that... =/


Yeah... a combined 0 for 28 on loot chances this week for my two "mains". Not ideal.
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