What's up with T15?

[Bellanka]

*Honestly, who WOULDN'T want a triceratops mount from the Warbringers? Those things are awesome! And in three hours of flying around killing WarScouts and Warbringers in a group of 5 I was able to get August Celetials to Exalted on my main and Revered on my 85 Enchanting/TailoringBot Shaman, as well as Klaxxi, Shado Pan, and Golden Lotus to Exalted on my Warrior. This is with 5 people greeding on insignias. Each one was 2200 rep because of guild perks and Revered bonus.

I'm starting to see enough of those mounts that I'm either gonna keep pushing for the ShadowPan cat, or go back for Arch and get my bug mount somehow..

They're Vanity Mounts of the "Oooh, look at this!" for 15 minutes variety. We got 2 in 3 hours. As well as 5 eggs on Isle of the Giants another time, but those raptors are so meh none of us want to go back.

(Well, except to feed T-Pain, the T-Rex on a Boat full of Dinomancers, as we give him sacrifice before raids for good luck.)

[Sagara]

So we both agree there are solutions. Thing is, in a perfect world, you can have at the end of week 1:
* Full set of 483 T14 gear
* One 522 piece
* A handful (5 or so) 496 pieces

Week 2:
* 3 522 pieces
* 7-ish 496 pieces
* 1 to 2 502 LFR pieces
* rest (4 or so) 483

So, basically, two weeks to reach 490-495 Ilvl. As opposed to 2 DAYS for T9/10/12/13.
As they say in french, CQFD.

[halabar]

*Honestly, who WOULDN'T want a triceratops mount from the Warbringers? Those things are awesome! And in three hours of flying around killing WarScouts and Warbringers in a group of 5 I was able to get August Celetials to Exalted on my main and Revered on my 85 Enchanting/TailoringBot Shaman, as well as Klaxxi, Shado Pan, and Golden Lotus to Exalted on my Warrior. This is with 5 people greeding on insignias. Each one was 2200 rep because of guild perks and Revered bonus.

I'm starting to see enough of those mounts that I'm either gonna keep pushing for the ShadowPan cat, or go back for Arch and get my bug mount somehow..

They're Vanity Mounts of the "Oooh, look at this!" for 15 minutes variety. We got 2 in 3 hours. As well as 5 eggs on Isle of the Giants another time, but those raptors are so meh none of us want to go back.

(Well, except to feed T-Pain, the T-Rex on a Boat full of Dinomancers, as we give him sacrifice before raids for good luck.)

Lucky... I've been hearing of 100+ kills with no mounts dropping from the Warbringers.

[Flex]

so you started doing heroics, then moved on to karazhan, from there to gruul, to maggy, and then SSC, TK then hyjal and BT.

That is the wrong order for TBC progression.

Karazhan->Heroics->Mag/Grull->SSC/TK->Hyjal/BT and toss in various heroics you had to do to unlock Tier 5 and 6 raids.

Raiders bitched and moaned that heroics were rewarding better loot than their precious raids so Blizzard caved and made Karazhan loot same item level as heroic blues but epics so they'd be slightly better.

I believe they are trying to change the entire direction of their game away from what it has been for about an expansion and a half (including one where large numbers of players apparently started).

Cataclysm was an entire expansion based around the Trial of the Crusader gearing model.

[Bellanka]

So we both agree there are solutions. Thing is, in a perfect world, you can have at the end of week 1:
* Full set of 483 T14 gear
* One 522 piece
* A handful (5 or so) 496 pieces

Week 2:
* 3 522 pieces
* 7-ish 496 pieces
* 1 to 2 502 LFR pieces
* rest (4 or so) 483

So, basically, two weeks to reach 490-495 Ilvl. As opposed to 2 DAYS for T9/10/12/13.
As they say in french, CQFD.

This actually goes back to the ilevel not meaning as much as people think it does. I could take my 486ish Warrior into Normals and while I wouldn't be able to do the things my Paladin does (single tanking several bosses, because of class constraints anf not ilevel) I have no doubts whatsoever that I could pull my weight and clear normal modes in my current gear. Our healers don't really OOM unless we do something wrong and they're spam healing to make up for it. For the most part, our DPS keeps up, but we do have 2-3 people who could go a long way to improve their DPS. As well, our Trial Shadow Priest came to us at 481 ilevel two weeks ago, and has been more than pulling his weight. Moreso than some people who outgear him by almost 30 levels.

People are putting too much emphasis on ilevel and not enough on improving overall. Yeah, gear is harder to come by, but it's not impossible to come by. You can still get the gear, you just won't power through it in a day and then sit there bored because you're gear capped, then do the same on 4 alts and then get stressed out because suddenly you have ... nothing to do, and you're bored, and the game sucks.

Spreading out content so it doesn't all fall into place in a day is a GOOD thing. People are used to getting everything right away, like in your examples, but then what? So you're not killing four bosses the first day. Okay, what was your progress like last tier, when you had all that gear readily available? How did you overcome the roadblocks you hit there? Did you outgear it? If so, how much time was put into trying to work out the kinks in strat/performance? Because the problem may be more the approach than the availability of upgrades.

And because this is not said nearly enough, while World of Warcraft itself is a game for some, and a hobby to others, raiding traverses into a TEAM hobby area. This is a SOCIAL game, and as such it comes with responsibilities when you choose to be social with a group or team of raiders. I won't call it an esport, that's silly; but team means something - if you have a good crew of people who you like and work well together, are you helping each other out, or are you saying "Hey so and so, step it up" and leaving it at that? And maybe that's why my mediocre team of ne'er-do-wells and goofballs excels ... we help each other out, we talk things out, we openly discuss things like performance and areas of improvement. Because of the atmosphere of friendship and bonding (and our trips to Vegas) there's a lot of camaraderie and people WANT to put in the effort. They take pride in their team. Even those of us like me who would rather go play in the park with my dog, or spend time with my fiancee and our friends out at dinner or on someone's living room floor watching bad movies on Netflix and drinking booze rather than do optional content can do well and progress. (And I'm the Raid Leader!)

Far, far too many people are looking to ilevel or nerfs to fix their problems with the content, and I don't see nearly as many people using the Raiding forums for advice as there were in previous tiers.

I don't consider myself an elite or elitist player. I don't think I ever will. I do consider myself a savvy player, though. I manage my time efficiently (I see people sitting in Shrine or Org complaining about being bored ... okay, go do something!), I put in the work I need to do to improve in areas I notice I'm deficient (which is why my workday downtime is spent here), and I see any problems that I or my team come up against as a challenge and think through it or ask advice about it. I'm also very, very, "unbearably oh god why are you even bothering" bad at Math, so theorycrafting beyond the basics is out of reach for me.

That's why I appreciate community so much. Not just the community we have in my guild and on my team, but the community we have on these forums. We have such a broad spectrum of player types here, we share information, we shoot the shit, we laugh, we joke, we share our miseries (and have stickied threads for doing so). But do people realize and appreciate that? These forums exist to strengthen the community, it's a place to vent, to ask questions and find answers, from all degrees of the game - and while the venting is fine, there are solutions to be had here for those problems as well. Yeah, opinions will clash, but if a guild is having problems with a boss they can post in the Raiding Forums and typically receive responses on tips, tricks, and ways to improve. I think we have one of the best communities for that. More people just need to learn to use it.

[Bellanka]

They're Vanity Mounts of the "Oooh, look at this!" for 15 minutes variety. We got 2 in 3 hours. As well as 5 eggs on Isle of the Giants another time, but those raptors are so meh none of us want to go back.

(Well, except to feed T-Pain, the T-Rex on a Boat full of Dinomancers, as we give him sacrifice before raids for good luck.)

Lucky... I've been hearing of 100+ kills with no mounts dropping from the Warbringers.

I consider it fair compensation for the amount of Alliance we had to kill (and their very crude whispers from level 1 alts) to get those Warbringers and Scouts. 4/5 to 1 imbalance in their favor on our PVP server, and they're like freakin' roaches. I'd say we spent just as much time killing the Allies as we spent killing MoBs.

Also, have YOU tried offering Sacrifice to T-Pain on the Isle of Giants? He has been a very kind and benevolent seafaring carnosaur for us thus far.

EDIT: I'm going to make T-Pain a thing.

[halabar]

Also, have YOU tried offering Sacrifice to T-Pain on the Isle of Giants? He has been a very kind and benevolent seafaring carnosaur for us thus far.

That Trex himself? he's dropping the eggs? or other mount?

Killed the Wargod on that boat several times for the usual bags and commodations, but haven't seen any other loot from there.

[Bellanka]

Also, have YOU tried offering Sacrifice to T-Pain on the Isle of Giants? He has been a very kind and benevolent seafaring carnosaur for us thus far.

That Trex himself? he's dropping the eggs? or other mount?

Killed the Wargod on that boat several times for the usual bags and commodations, but haven't seen any other loot from there.

Sacrifices to T-Pain the T-Rex should be done thusly:

1) Swim to his boat with a group.
2) Pull T-Pain and all the Dinomancers.
3) Kill all Dinomancers, leaving T-Pain alive.
4) Swim away to leash T-Pain, leaving him free and alive, no longer oppressed by the "T-rany" of a boat full of jackhole Dinomancers.
5) Soak up all that sweet, sweet karma knowing you have done a great justice on this day.

[halabar]

Sacrifices to T-Pain the T-Rex should be done thusly:

1) Swim to his boat with a group.
2) Pull T-Pain and all the Dinomancers.
3) Kill all Dinomancers, leaving T-Pain alive.
4) Swim away to leash T-Pain, leaving him free and alive, no longer oppressed by the "T-rany" of a boat full of jackhole Dinomancers.
5) Soak up all that sweet, sweet karma knowing you have done a great justice on this day.

Considering the respawn rate of those dinomancers.. I imagine those could be farmed by a proper tank.

[Bellanka]

Sacrifices to T-Pain the T-Rex should be done thusly:

1) Swim to his boat with a group.
2) Pull T-Pain and all the Dinomancers.
3) Kill all Dinomancers, leaving T-Pain alive.
4) Swim away to leash T-Pain, leaving him free and alive, no longer oppressed by the "T-rany" of a boat full of jackhole Dinomancers.
5) Soak up all that sweet, sweet karma knowing you have done a great justice on this day.

Considering the respawn rate of those dinomancers.. I imagine those could be farmed by a proper tank.

Very likely. Their abundance is what makes them suitable sacrifices to our seafaring carnivorous lord.

[Sagara]

This actually goes back to the ilevel not meaning as much as people think it does. I could take my 486ish Warrior into Normals and while I wouldn't be able to do the things my Paladin does (single tanking several bosses, because of class constraints anf not ilevel) I have no doubts whatsoever that I could pull my weight and clear normal modes in my current gear. Our healers don't really OOM unless we do something wrong and they're spam healing to make up for it. For the most part, our DPS keeps up, but we do have 2-3 people who could go a long way to improve their DPS. As well, our Trial Shadow Priest came to us at 481 ilevel two weeks ago, and has been more than pulling his weight. Moreso than some people who outgear him by almost 30 levels.

People are putting too much emphasis on ilevel and not enough on improving overall. Yeah, gear is harder to come by, but it's not impossible to come by. You can still get the gear, you just won't power through it in a day and then sit there bored because you're gear capped, then do the same on 4 alts and then get stressed out because suddenly you have ... nothing to do, and you're bored, and the game sucks.

Spreading out content so it doesn't all fall into place in a day is a GOOD thing. People are used to getting everything right away, like in your examples, but then what? So you're not killing four bosses the first day. Okay, what was your progress like last tier, when you had all that gear readily available? How did you overcome the roadblocks you hit there? Did you outgear it? If so, how much time was put into trying to work out the kinks in strat/performance? Because the problem may be more the approach than the availability of upgrades.

And because this is not said nearly enough, while World of Warcraft itself is a game for some, and a hobby to others, raiding traverses into a TEAM hobby area. This is a SOCIAL game, and as such it comes with responsibilities when you choose to be social with a group or team of raiders. I won't call it an esport, that's silly; but team means something - if you have a good crew of people who you like and work well together, are you helping each other out, or are you saying "Hey so and so, step it up" and leaving it at that? And maybe that's why my mediocre team of ne'er-do-wells and goofballs excels ... we help each other out, we talk things out, we openly discuss things like performance and areas of improvement. Because of the atmosphere of friendship and bonding (and our trips to Vegas) there's a lot of camaraderie and people WANT to put in the effort. They take pride in their team. Even those of us like me who would rather go play in the park with my dog, or spend time with my fiancee and our friends out at dinner or on someone's living room floor watching bad movies on Netflix and drinking booze rather than do optional content can do well and progress. (And I'm the Raid Leader!)

Far, far too many people are looking to ilevel or nerfs to fix their problems with the content, and I don't see nearly as many people using the Raiding forums for advice as there were in previous tiers.

I don't consider myself an elite or elitist player. I don't think I ever will. I do consider myself a savvy player, though. I manage my time efficiently (I see people sitting in Shrine or Org complaining about being bored ... okay, go do something!), I put in the work I need to do to improve in areas I notice I'm deficient (which is why my workday downtime is spent here), and I see any problems that I or my team come up against as a challenge and think through it or ask advice about it. I'm also very, very, "unbearably oh god why are you even bothering" bad at Math, so theorycrafting beyond the basics is out of reach for me.

That's why I appreciate community so much. Not just the community we have in my guild and on my team, but the community we have on these forums. We have such a broad spectrum of player types here, we share information, we shoot the shit, we laugh, we joke, we share our miseries (and have stickied threads for doing so). But do people realize and appreciate that? These forums exist to strengthen the community, it's a place to vent, to ask questions and find answers, from all degrees of the game - and while the venting is fine, there are solutions to be had here for those problems as well. Yeah, opinions will clash, but if a guild is having problems with a boss they can post in the Raiding Forums and typically receive responses on tips, tricks, and ways to improve. I think we have one of the best communities for that. More people just need to learn to use it.

I think you pretty muchd the point I was trying to make. Here we go:

It is my belief that the current highest problem that our fellow maintankadin have does not truly lie in boss difficulty, and that it is merely an "effect" of a deeper "cause".

I'll be honest, a good part of that reason is that I'm at 6/12N right now, without considering myself top notch material, while also not holding my guild back. So, to me, it means the problem does not lie in the bosses. Also when I consider that Klaud and Nooska both utterly pwned my own progression in the previous tiers.

So, then, what is so different between myself and those people? The most reasonable answer I've found yet is gear - I'm above 500 right now, and predict to touch 510 in a couple of weeks, while both my friends are stuck much lower. And that is what led me to compare gearing catchup between patches, prompting me to note that catchup is much more slower than previous tier.

A good way to confirm my suspicion is to prompt those very same player to consider wether they'd feel this tier would be "more fair" with a stronger catchup mechanism.

Which situation is better? That's an open question I will not broach for now, because in the end, it'll be all about tastes. I'm not interested in tastes - just in finding causes, in comparing and contrasting situations.

[Hawkslayer]

so you started doing heroics, then moved on to karazhan, from there to gruul, to maggy, and then SSC, TK then hyjal and BT.

That is the wrong order for TBC progression.

Karazhan->Heroics->Mag/Grull->SSC/TK->Hyjal/BT and toss in various heroics you had to do to unlock Tier 5 and 6 raids.

I believe you are mistaken here. I'm pretty sure several of the heroics were a requirement of the Karazhan attument. I specifically remember spending many hours in Black Morass and others getting people in my raid group attuned simply so we could get the key to Kara.

[Lieris]

so you started doing heroics, then moved on to karazhan, from there to gruul, to maggy, and then SSC, TK then hyjal and BT.

That is the wrong order for TBC progression.

Karazhan->Heroics->Mag/Grull->SSC/TK->Hyjal/BT and toss in various heroics you had to do to unlock Tier 5 and 6 raids.

I believe you are mistaken here. I'm pretty sure several of the heroics were a requirement of the Karazhan attument. I specifically remember spending many hours in Black Morass and others getting people in my raid group attuned simply so we could get the key to Kara.

No, you could do those on normal and given that you needed to be revered with a dungeon faction to buy the heroic key I don't think anybody did the Karazhan attunement on heroic.

[Chunes]

so you started doing heroics, then moved on to karazhan, from there to gruul, to maggy, and then SSC, TK then hyjal and BT.

That is the wrong order for TBC progression.

Karazhan->Heroics->Mag/Grull->SSC/TK->Hyjal/BT and toss in various heroics you had to do to unlock Tier 5 and 6 raids.

I believe you are mistaken here. I'm pretty sure several of the heroics were a requirement of the Karazhan attument. I specifically remember spending many hours in Black Morass and others getting people in my raid group attuned simply so we could get the key to Kara.

Yeah, you had to go into a few of them for the atunement, but iirc it didn't have to be on heroic difficulty.

I think a lot of guilds elected to skip magtheridon entirely in the progression chain for time purposes once they had their initial kill because the early bosses in SSC were a better expenditure of time regarding loot, prior to the mag nerf.

It's a little hazy since it was some time ago, but I remember doing kara in garbo blues pretty soon after hitting 70 (Crystalforged Swort + Crest of the Sha'tar ) skipping mag entirely to focus on grull, gathering a NR set for the first boss of SSC, farming him and lootpinata-below for a bit, then slowly progressing through the remainder of SSC/TK sans final bosses. Doing heroics all the while to upgrade slots that were not craftable or were tier slots being out-bid by those motherfucking cocksucking warlocks who just happened to have a full set of fucking crafted gear that they could ride all the way to T5 and thus never had to fucking spend DKP ON FUCKING ANYTHING.

About that time the badge gear made its appearance and greatly aided progression to the point that we abandoned Vashj/Kael and jumped into BT/Hyjal since they'd removed the attunements for them by that time.

We did eventually spend some time learning and killing vashj, but for a semi-casual band of raiders we could never muster the gumption to kill KT. We did get archi/illidan though and the first boss of sunwell before the next expansion dropped.


tl;dr - baddie casual mid-late expansion progression path:

KZ - Heroics - Gruul - Heroics - 2 bosses in SSC - Heroics - Badgers of Justice Gear - First few bosses in BT/Hyjal - Mag/Vashj - Archi/Illi - Ultimate Grand Challenge Boss Kaelthas


*edit*

Oh yeah, we did a shit ton of ZA bear runs somewhere in there too. Some decent loot was gained there as well, namely this bad boy: http://www.wowhead.com/item=33326

[Flex]

I believe you are mistaken here. I'm pretty sure several of the heroics were a requirement of the Karazhan attument. I specifically remember spending many hours in Black Morass and others getting people in my raid group attuned simply so we could get the key to Kara.

No, you could do those on normal and given that you needed to be revered with a dungeon faction to buy the heroic key I don't think anybody did the Karazhan attunement on heroic.

Correct. Karazhan was regular mode 5 mans.
Heroics and Magtheridon were required for TK attunement, not to mention that you had to do a quest chain in Shadowmoon Valley to get the quests to do the heroics to do the raid that will allow you to do the raid you really want to do.
SSC was Karazhan and Grull's lair.