What's up with T15?

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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Bellanka » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:32 pm

Darielle wrote:Especially in the current raid environment, when chances are, getting replacements is going to be a daunting task, so people are happy to stay complacent knowing their raid spots are all but assured while they kill themselves watching American Idol.


This is so true, so depressingly, alcoholism-inducingly true.

EDIT: I mean the nightmare that is recruiting. Although American Idol is equally appropriate for inducing alcoholism.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:14 pm

So it's starting to sound like some of the problems people are having are more to do with the raid groups changing and/or falling apart than the content.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:20 pm

Or maybe the content had a hand in the raid groups changing/falling apart.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:40 pm

Promdates wrote:This can honestly be said for everything up until probably Ji-Kun/Durumu/Primo. There's no real "gear checks" in normal.


On Turtle, if you don't have one shell down by the first breath, you will wipe. It's not much of a gear check, but it's not necessarily trivial either. On Maeg if heads don't die by the 5th breath, bad things happen. Again, not much of a gear check, but it is there.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Nooska » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:20 am

I think too much emphasis is put on everyone in a raid needing to pull their weight.
Yes, of course, you need to commit, and thats something that I think we can all agree on - but when a developer (team) chooses where to set the bar, do you really feel that the bar should be set so only guilds where everyone moves above the current average can be allowed to down bosses?
(Using average as the average of "output" in both damage/healing and moving out of the fire of the raiding population - raiding population being those that raid in an organized group regularly)

The average raider and the average raider expectation has been set by previous expansions. Yes I liked TBC a lot - also because the tiers weren't as such released consecutively (ignoring buggy, unbeatable encounters and sunwell which was a "filler"), so you started doing heroics, then moved on to karazhan, from there to gruul, to maggy, and then SSC, TK then hyjal and BT.
That progression path did have problems - especially for lower progressed guilds in the form of feeder guilds.
MoP has shown the same tendency - the skilled people (or rather the ones that think they are skilled - true or not) move up. The age of the game also shows in lack of recruits - many of the older player sthat saw TBC when current (the only similar expansion in terms of difficulty) have moved on to being more casual about their playing (casual as in the textbook definition, not as in unskilled or lacking commitment), and the younger people tend to think of themselves as gifts from the titans to any raid group - some have more and some less skill.

The bar set by blizzard previously needs to be raised incrementally or it is devastating to existing guilds - I agree, just because you did well in Cata doesn't mean you should be doing well in MoP, but add in raider entropy from the simple fact that the older you get, the greater the number of raiders will establish families with responsibilities to them, to jobs (by advancing in a career) or other RL stuff (like social events, activism in various areas) means that as raiders age, they do gain more skill (hopefully they get better with time), but they also have a higher "risk" of not being able to commit as much time as previously.

Basically, what I'm saying is, that what was good design in 2006/7 isn't good design in 2012/3, unless you are making a product aimed at the same age group in both cases - and if so, then its still not good design here, because, yes, the younger population feels more entitled, due to the general way the world has gone.

Case in point, Nintendohard games don't exist in general anymore, the ones that do go that route do so specifically to make a point. Heck Super Mario is about as easy as it gets these days with save points and many other features - all due to the way gaming has evolved as well, with more games being longer, and being consumed at a slower pace and in small chunks.

My point is, that a lot of the rhethoric I'm seeing in the arguments, is based on the elite few skilled, and then the masses, where the masses should just have to "get better" - or in other words become part of the elite few, if they want to not get aggravted by not downing bosses - because, lets face it, the reason raiders expect to down bosses, is due to the game teaching them that that is what should happen - which results in less patience for working on bosses and a greater mobility in moving up to a guild that already downed a boss (that can carry you iow, for a lot of those moving on).
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:50 am

That was incredibly well put.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Sagara » Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:11 am

Let's refine the problem then. What I did notice is that catch-up was *way* easier in post-Ulduar WotLK and Cata.

T9: T8-equivalent 5 man/T8 "Valor" gear with "Justice"/"Valor" gear
T10: T9-equivalent 5 man/T9 "Valor" gear with "Justice"/"Valor" gear
T12: near-T11 equivalent 5 man/T11 Valor gear with Justice/Valor gear
T13: T12 equivalent 5 man/T13 LFR/T11 Valor gear with Justice/Valor gear

compare:
T15: pre-raid 5 man/T14 LFR/Scattered T15 LFR/Gated T14 Valor Gear/Heavily gated T15 Valor gear

When a guild didn't finish up on the previous tier, it was just a question of farming 5man for a) upgrades, b)Justice for moar upgrades. And if that bothered you, you could always just return to the nerfed raid of the previous tier.

It's going to happen this time around as well - once all 4 wings will be open, it'll be failry easy to stock up on 502 gear and the rep to buy a smattering of 522 Valor pieces. The critical difference is the time lapse. It's going to be 4 more weeks until the entire LFR is available. Until then, guilds are stuck with the "nerfed T14 raid" solution. And if guilds liked to do 5man better (or farm justice), well, though luck.

Going on a limb now - If I were to say "The entire problem could have been solved by making T14 Valor gear unlinked from rep and/or Justice-based, and/or by adding 5-man instances that dropped T14 equivalent?", what would your answer be?
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby benebarba » Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:16 am

Sagara wrote:Going on a limb now - If I were to say "The entire problem could have been solved by making T14 Valor gear unlinked from rep and/or Justice-based, and/or by adding 5-man instances that dropped T14 equivalent?", what would your answer be?


That I'm not sure Blizzard actually thinks there is a problem (or if they do, it's a different problem). I believe they are trying to change the entire direction of their game away from what it has been for about an expansion and a half (including one where large numbers of players apparently started).
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Bellanka » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:01 am

Sagara wrote:compare:
T15: pre-raid 5 man/T14 LFR/Scattered T15 LFR/Gated T14 Valor Gear/Heavily gated T15 Valor gear


I guess this is where you lost me ...

What do you mean by heavily gated for T15 valor gear? The Neck is available right away, rings/trinkets unlock VERY quickly even if you're only doing LFR. Legs/Capes not too long after. Even if you're capping valor, you'll be able to afford the items when you unlock them. Again, just through LFR rep gains and not counting the Shan'ze or whatever stone weekly quests.

Also, it made accessing T14 Valor gear not only easier (double rep on ALL characters once one of yours hits revered), but cheaper by half. Alternate progression routes (Dungeons/Scenarios/Farm/Insignias) for unlocking reputations exist now. It made that gear far more accessible.

EDIT: Also wanted to clarify, I almost *never* did dailies, and I loathe the current way they're used. The only piece of Valor gear I've actively sought and bought was the Shado Pan trinket.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Sagara » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:33 am

Bellanka wrote:
Sagara wrote:compare:
T15: pre-raid 5 man/T14 LFR/Scattered T15 LFR/Gated T14 Valor Gear/Heavily gated T15 Valor gear


I guess this is where you lost me ...

What do you mean by heavily gated for T15 valor gear? The Neck is available right away, rings/trinkets unlock VERY quickly even if you're only doing LFR. Legs/Capes not too long after. Even if you're capping valor, you'll be able to afford the items when you unlock them. Again, just through LFR rep gains and not counting the Shan'ze or whatever stone weekly quests.

Also, it made accessing T14 Valor gear not only easier (double rep on ALL characters once one of yours hits revered), but cheaper by half. Alternate progression routes (Dungeons/Scenarios/Farm/Insignias) for unlocking reputations exist now. It made that gear far more accessible.

EDIT: Also wanted to clarify, I almost *never* did dailies, and I loathe the current way they're used. The only piece of Valor gear I've actively sought and bought was the Shado Pan trinket.


The question is degrees. All the other tiers I mentionned, you could hit LFG on patch day and deck yourself in loot equivalent to the previous tier in a matter of hours.

What is the current fastest way to 496 ilvl for a guild that was, say, at 8/16 on patch day? Let's say they're in the late 480's (I have no idea how realistic that is, btw).
Week 1 - Valor for the Shado-pan neck, T14 LFR, dailies for Sunreaver/Silverwing belt, 5.0 & 5.1 Valor rewards. - Valor is here the bottleneck. You'll probably have the opportunity to buy 2 pieces, the neck and something else, possibly from the 5.1 factions, or save for Week 2
Week 2 - add LFR 1st wing, and thus the ring and wrists from the Shado-pan if you trahs farm a bit (if you had stocked up on valor), the Revered rewards from the Sunreaver/Silverwing thingie (who do cost Valor)
Week 3 - LFR 2nd wing, no more from the Shado-pan, the Exalted pieces from the Sunreaver/Silverwing

That's what I was talking about: Relatively speaking, it is harder to "catch-up" than at any point since Ulduar. And from what I'm hearing, this could be the root of the problem - if you're lagging behind in T14, that lag will carry over much longer than in Tier 9/10/12/13, where it would disappear nearly overnight.
Last edited by Sagara on Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Bellanka » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:45 am

Sagara wrote:What is the current fastest way to 496 ilvl for a guild that was, say, at 8/16 on patch day? Let's say they're in the late 480's (I have no idea how realistic that is, btw).
Week 1 - Trash runs for the Shado-pan neck, T14 LFR, dailies for Sunreaver/Silverwing belt, 5.0 & 5.1 Valor rewards. - Valor is here the bottleneck. You'll probably have the opportunity to buy 2 pieces, the neck and something else, possibly the Sunreaver belt.
Week 2 - add LFR 1st wing, and thus the ring and wrists from the Shado-pan (if you had stocked up on valor), the Revered rewards from the Sunreaver/Silverwing thingie
Week 3 - LFR 2nd wing, no more from the Shado-pan, the Exalted pieces from the Sunreaver/Silverwing

That's what I was talking about: Relatively speaking, it is harder to "catch-up" than at any point since Ulduar. And from what I'm hearing, this could be the root of the problem - if you're lagging behind in T14, that lag will carry over much longer than in Tier 9/10/12/13, where it would disappear nearly overnight.


Do you even have to do a trash run for the Shado-Pan neck? I seem to recall just walking up to the vendor with a "Hey, 'sup?" and purchasing it. Isn't it available at Neutral?

Also, I thought Sunreaver items were purchased with gold, not valor?

Maybe I'm wrong on the Sunreaver one. I don't do dailies unless I absolutely have to, or I'm in need of lesser charms.

EDIT: Just checked on my phone. Belts are bought with gold. Cloaks and Rings are 900-some valor, which can be ignored since you can buy the 522 ones instead for slightly more valor.
Last edited by Bellanka on Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Sagara » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:50 am

D'oh. It's the Week 2 of the Assault that needs trash run.
And only the belt cost gold. I'll update accordingly.

Anyway, the point stands - it's way harder than what we've had the last 2 x-packs.
EDIT: I'm currently not taking position btw. Just stating differences between then and now, to try and pinpoint what has changed that made this discussion happen.
Also, the cloak is *revered* Shado-pan. if our progression in ToT is any indication, LFR'ers will have to wait for week 3 or 4 at least to get their hands on it. Considering my entire point is about waiting much longer to catch up, I'd say it qualifies. Also, we have two rings ;-)
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Bellanka » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:21 am

Sagara wrote:D'oh. It's the Week 2 of the Assault that needs trash run.
And only the belt cost gold. I'll update accordingly.

Anyway, the point stands - it's way harder than what we've had the last 2 x-packs.


I updated my post as well - both those items aren't really worth it when you're actively pursuing the Shado Pan rep, you get FAR more ilevel return per valor for the newer items, which you should have unlocked by the time you're ready to buy them.

As well, LFR gear is 502 ilevel and has a chance to be Thunderforged - the old rep items, which I still maintain are FAR easier* to unlock now, are still 489, half the price, and can fill in any weak spots if you're overcapped on valor waiting to unlock Shado-Pan.

I mean, by your example my Prot Warrior (Bellanca on Alterac Mountains, if you want to peek at her armory, although I think I logged out in Fury gear) fits your definition of casual. This was a character I played to help my fiancee's guild on a more populated server, and they were 8/16 normal, I did no dailies, and my Prot ilevel after ~6 raids and a bunch of LFR is about 486ish?

Also ... I'm traveling outside the realm of average/normal and thinking outside the box here ... but when I log my Warrior on every Tuesday the first thing I do is go to the IoT and kill rares for the epic key. When I get into the instance I spend my time opening up every chest, so I can cap my Greater Coins, then I use them in LFR (And this past week PUGs/OpenRaid CrossRealm Raids) for gear. The extra roll for each boss is nice.



*Honestly, who WOULDN'T want a triceratops mount from the Warbringers? Those things are awesome! And in three hours of flying around killing WarScouts and Warbringers in a group of 5 I was able to get August Celetials to Exalted on my main and Revered on my 85 Enchanting/TailoringBot Shaman, as well as Klaxxi, Shado Pan, and Golden Lotus to Exalted on my Warrior. This is with 5 people greeding on insignias. Each one was 2200 rep because of guild perks and Revered bonus.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby halabar » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:32 am

Bellanka wrote:*Honestly, who WOULDN'T want a triceratops mount from the Warbringers? Those things are awesome! And in three hours of flying around killing WarScouts and Warbringers in a group of 5 I was able to get August Celetials to Exalted on my main and Revered on my 85 Enchanting/TailoringBot Shaman, as well as Klaxxi, Shado Pan, and Golden Lotus to Exalted on my Warrior. This is with 5 people greeding on insignias. Each one was 2200 rep because of guild perks and Revered bonus.


I'm starting to see enough of those mounts that I'm either gonna keep pushing for the ShadowPan cat, or go back for Arch and get my bug mount somehow..
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Bellanka » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:36 am

Sagara wrote:EDIT: I'm currently not taking position btw. Just stating differences between then and now, to try and pinpoint what has changed that made this discussion happen.
Also, the cloak is *revered* Shado-pan. if our progression in ToT is any indication, LFR'ers will have to wait for week 3 or 4 at least to get their hands on it. Considering my entire point is about waiting much longer to catch up, I'd say it qualifies. Also, we have two rings ;-)


No, that's fine, we're having a discussion, no flaring tempers or people screaming OMG IT'S MY WAY WHY ARE YOU SO STUPIT? (which is why I love this forum so much.)

I still think that reputation is far, FAR easier than you give it credit for with the new changes. Rep from Dungeons/Scenarios, the farm, and those beautiful, wonderful insignias that make me not have to do dailies on my alts.

And while we do have two rings, the point is to get a higher level in a shorter amount of time, so why spend 936vp on a 496 ring, when you can get a 522 for 1250? That's 26 ilevels in a single slot, at a cost of 314 additional valor. You can still get the Sunreaver one, but the Shado Pan one is a much better buy earlier on for the ilevel boost.
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