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What's up with T15?

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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:51 am

Bellanka wrote:
halabar wrote:
Bellanka wrote:tl;dr: If you can't dunk the ball the answer isn't to lower the hoop, it's to work on your jump.


But if you are 5'2" that ain't gonna work. :wink:


That sounds like an excuse to not even bother trying ;)

Also, your height isn't in your control ... your ability to improve, improvise, and inspire others to do the same is.


I gotta say, we were trying...
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Flex » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:53 am

Sagara wrote:End result, when the brutal climb of MoP came, guilds weren't ready, and it's now we realise exactly how things had lapsed.

Opinions?


My thought. Same shit, different expansion. Going into TBC raids were ruined forever by being 25 man. Going into WotLK raids were ruined forever with having a 10s variant. Going into Cataclysm raids were ruined forever by not having separate lockouts for 10s and 25s. Now riding is ruined forever because it is harder.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:55 am

Sagara wrote:Pet theory of mine: guilds have face a somewhat easier barrier in Ds and maybe before. Along the way, some people joined guilds, people that never faced the walls many among is have had. Also, some among us mayhave changed a bit, due to responsibilties or tastes.

End result, when the brutal climb of MoP came, guilds weren't ready, and it's now we realise exactly how things had lapsed.

Opinions?


Could be, not sure how that helps business though.

Most of my old guild has quit, others are in the bubble. Even after transferring to AP, I'm still on the bubble.

You're talking about a realm first lvl 25 guild, a guild that used to run two raids, that was constantly in top 10 server wise during normal progression (but we would ease off once heroics would come in)...
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Flex » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:03 am

Klaudandus wrote:Most of my old guild has quit, others are in the bubble. Even after transferring to AP, I'm still on the bubble.


To be honest your guild sounds like it had issues long before this came out.

To improve, my raiders were pretty much told to do stuff that they had no real interest in, be it lfr or dailies (to get the rep), but also was said that this was optional... Some tried and got burned out and quit... Others didnt bother and were accused of holding the team back.


Who told them to do stuff they didn't want to do? And who accused them of holding back the team? If members of your guild were accusing players of holding them back there were much deeper problems than you might want to admit.

After a bit of debate I've held firm on my "don't do shit you don't want to do" mindset for this expansion and it seems to have worked out pretty okay.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Bellanka » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:04 am

Klaudandus wrote:I gotta say, we were trying...


From reading the frustrations thread you said that you were getting Garalon to 3% before enrage, my point is that there may have been things your team could have done differently to beat the counter. Were you three-healing when you could have two-healed? Was the DPS coming to the raid prepared? (And by prepared I mean was everyone pulling their weight, using their glyphs/talents/gems/reforges appropriately?) Because even at the gear level you're telling us is there (some MSV with some LFR. even completely discounting Rep/Valor items) the boss will have been killable.

I definitely understand where the frustration is coming in, but don't let the frustration distract you from what the real problems are and were. Something could have been changed to secure your kill sooner.
Last edited by Bellanka on Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby halabar » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:24 am

Bellanka wrote:
halabar wrote:
Bellanka wrote:tl;dr: If you can't dunk the ball the answer isn't to lower the hoop, it's to work on your jump.


But if you are 5'2" that ain't gonna work. :wink:


That sounds like an excuse to not even bother trying ;)

Also, your height isn't in your control ... your ability to improve, improvise, and inspire others to do the same is.


Yes and no.. time, inherit skill, and commitment are all factors that can limit growth. Telling a person to get better and grind 1000 valor every week isn't always reasonable, and needs to be part of realistic expectations for guild progression. If you guild has a shallow "improvement" scale, then nerfs or overgearing are going to need to make up the difference.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:24 am

Flex wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Most of my old guild has quit, others are in the bubble. Even after transferring to AP, I'm still on the bubble.


To be honest your guild sounds like it had issues long before this came out.


Every guild has problems... in our case, T14 just aggravated them and made them more obvious...

Bellanka wrote:From reading the frustrations thread you said that you were getting Garalon to 3% before enrage, my point is that there may have been things your team could have done differently to beat the counter.


And it was some newish members that started everything to be honest... thing is, some of our older raiders had to step down from the raiding scene or cut back (because they had a new kid, or changed jobs), we brought new people into the raid, and some of the older raiders just either didnt like the dailies or couldnt do them, and the newish people were like "c'mon, step it up!"

To be honest, Garalon was killable at the time we raided him, with the gear we had, we just needed some extra tweaks, maybe a piece of gear, or maybe just better luck with garalon and whichever leg he spawns, or just a slightly cleaner execution.

But we did hit that wall right before x-mas break, during the x-mas break tempers flared up, we got poached, the replacements started bickering... at one point we had to regress because we were having problems just trying to get to garalon...

I still believe had we killed Garalon, things would have turned out better.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Bellanka » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:58 am

halabar wrote:Yes and no.. time, inherit skill, and commitment are all factors that can limit growth. Telling a person to get better and grind 1000 valor every week isn't always reasonable, and needs to be part of realistic expectations for guild progression. If you guild has a shallow "improvement" scale, then nerfs or overgearing are going to need to make up the difference.


I never said someone should grind valor. Far from it, I despise their current model of dailies and reputation. (And finally got a few of mine to exalted thanks to the Insignias that Warscouts and Warbringers are dropping.)

But on the matter of inherent skill and commitment ... skill is something that can be worked at, and no one is expecting anyone to become a WoW pro overnight. You may not get something naturally, but with practice you can improve if you want to and put in the effort. If you are on a raid team, and the entire team has the same goals, then there is already a commitment. You have 9-24+ other people relying on you to pull your weight. If you can't commit to playing up to your team's level, either through reading class forums, using AMR for your reforging/gemming, or asking for help from other people of your class/spec, then SHOULD you have a reasonable expectation of progression through difficult fights?

I don't think so at all.

T15 isn't requiring bleeding edge precision gameplay to progress through normals. It's requiring people to think and act and use their class appropriately. Previous tiers were easier, without argument, but the current tear is more about using the skills you learned in previous tiers and applying them, about knowing your class, and rewarding you for playing well. The more people you have who don't do this, the more the ones that do will need to outgear the fight to carry them. This has always been the case. T15 is just making it more obvious.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby halabar » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:05 pm

Bellanka wrote:
halabar wrote:Yes and no.. time, inherit skill, and commitment are all factors that can limit growth. Telling a person to get better and grind 1000 valor every week isn't always reasonable, and needs to be part of realistic expectations for guild progression. If you guild has a shallow "improvement" scale, then nerfs or overgearing are going to need to make up the difference.


I never said someone should grind valor. Far from it, I despise their current model of dailies and reputation. (And finally got a few of mine to exalted thanks to the Insignias that Warscouts and Warbringers are dropping.)

But on the matter of inherent skill and commitment ... skill is something that can be worked at, and no one is expecting anyone to become a WoW pro overnight. You may not get something naturally, but with practice you can improve if you want to and put in the effort. If you are on a raid team, and the entire team has the same goals, then there is already a commitment. You have 9-24+ other people relying on you to pull your weight. If you can't commit to playing up to your team's level, either through reading class forums, using AMR for your reforging/gemming, or asking for help from other people of your class/spec, then SHOULD you have a reasonable expectation of progression through difficult fights?


Let me put it this way... the more casual the raid team, the less commitment you can expect from people.

And in a sick twist of Blizzfate, the more casual the team, the more things like grinding valor for gear become important, as gearing as a means of progression takes on greater significance if skill gain isn't going to fill the gap.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Bellanka » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:18 pm

halabar wrote:
Bellanka wrote:
halabar wrote:Yes and no.. time, inherit skill, and commitment are all factors that can limit growth. Telling a person to get better and grind 1000 valor every week isn't always reasonable, and needs to be part of realistic expectations for guild progression. If you guild has a shallow "improvement" scale, then nerfs or overgearing are going to need to make up the difference.


I never said someone should grind valor. Far from it, I despise their current model of dailies and reputation. (And finally got a few of mine to exalted thanks to the Insignias that Warscouts and Warbringers are dropping.)

But on the matter of inherent skill and commitment ... skill is something that can be worked at, and no one is expecting anyone to become a WoW pro overnight. You may not get something naturally, but with practice you can improve if you want to and put in the effort. If you are on a raid team, and the entire team has the same goals, then there is already a commitment. You have 9-24+ other people relying on you to pull your weight. If you can't commit to playing up to your team's level, either through reading class forums, using AMR for your reforging/gemming, or asking for help from other people of your class/spec, then SHOULD you have a reasonable expectation of progression through difficult fights?


Let me put it this way... the more casual the raid team, the less commitment you can expect from people.

And in a sick twist of Blizzfate, the more casual the team, the more things like grinding valor for gear become important, as gearing as a means of progression takes on greater significance if skill gain isn't going to fill the gap.


You're saying casual, but when you reach the level non-committal/Friends&family you're not a casual raider, you're a friends&family gamer.

If you don't want to commit, you have LFR.

If you want to raid, you have to commit to it on SOME level. If you are a part of a raid team, you have a responsibility and a commitment to other people there. Their time is just as valuable as yours. If you don't want to, then LFR is your playground and your expectations are out of whack.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby halabar » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:45 pm

Bellanka wrote:
halabar wrote:Let me put it this way... the more casual the raid team, the less commitment you can expect from people.

And in a sick twist of Blizzfate, the more casual the team, the more things like grinding valor for gear become important, as gearing as a means of progression takes on greater significance if skill gain isn't going to fill the gap.


You're saying casual, but when you reach the level non-committal/Friends&family you're not a casual raider, you're a friends&family gamer.

If you don't want to commit, you have LFR.

If you want to raid, you have to commit to it on SOME level. If you are a part of a raid team, you have a responsibility and a commitment to other people there. Their time is just as valuable as yours. If you don't want to, then LFR is your playground and your expectations are out of whack.


Well, it's not my commitment that's the issue, it's the 8 or so I question on "my" raid team. Some of it is inexperience, some is just flat out lack of commitment.

Remains to be seen how that flushes out, and how the RL will manage poor performance.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Darielle » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:48 pm

Let me put it this way... the more casual the raid team, the less commitment you can expect from people.


That's getting to the point of using the word "casual" to mean something else entirely.

The more casual you are, the more commitment you need and should expect from people.
Unlike others, you need to be 100% on point in using limited time effectively. If you're interested in keeping pace (not everyone is), you will also need to stop farming easy bosses and make the call to extend lockouts to push bosses you have adequate gear for and rely on strategy and practice sooner.

Remains to be seen how that flushes out, and how the RL will manage poor performance.


Honestly, the RL has very little control at that point. A culture change has to come from within, from other members of the guild pushing each other. Especially in the current raid environment, when chances are, getting replacements is going to be a daunting task, so people are happy to stay complacent knowing their raid spots are all but assured while they kill themselves watching American Idol.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Promdates » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:05 pm

Newsom wrote:Horridon is not a gear check. Do the fight correctly and it will die.


This can honestly be said for everything up until probably Ji-Kun/Durumu/Primo. There's no real "gear checks" in normal.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Darielle » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:09 pm

I would have attributed pre-nerf Megaera on 10-man as a horrendous gearcheck (on your healers).
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Worldie » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:15 pm

Bellanka wrote:You're saying casual, but when you reach the level non-committal/Friends&family you're not a casual raider, you're a friends&family gamer.

If you don't want to commit, you have LFR.

If you want to raid, you have to commit to it on SOME level
. If you are a part of a raid team, you have a responsibility and a commitment to other people there. Their time is just as valuable as yours. If you don't want to, then LFR is your playground and your expectations are out of whack.

Let me quote this and add bold as it has caught perfectly my point of view.
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