Post your Frustrations.

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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Winkle » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:16 am

Worldie wrote:Arguable, I've joined several disorganized pugs that could clear 10/12 ICC 25 heroic and faceroll the remaining 2 normal modes, and my realm was far from being good. People even usually avoided me cause i was raging at the bads not biting on Lanatel heroic, and we'd still kill it.


Is that with or without the buff? 10/12 25 HC in ICC without the buff is a pretty spectacular pug if you ask me.

Overall though the difficulty has definitely swung from easy to hard, my guild cleared normal DS week 1, this was kind of unexpected for us and it certainly felt like an easy tier, clearly Blizzard felt the same, if i remember at the time there were a lot of guilds stuck on 1/8hc for a very long time.

Perhaps the new model is better, at the end of the day if people are progressing they're happier than being stuck on one boss i'd wager, perhaps that even includes progressing a tier behind like back in tbc.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Lieris » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:30 am

It's not really a PUG if most of the raid are in raiding guilds, half the people know each other and are on their well maintained alts. I grinded out 35 Shadowmourne shards before 4.0 in trade chat PUGs and we were lucky to get 8 bosses down on normal WITH the 30% buff. Getting to and killing LK was a pipe dream. IMO my experience was far closer to what most people experienced in ICC PUGs than Worldie's.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:56 am

i think the problem is that under the new model, when you hit the wall... you hit the wall.

Previous tiers at least made it easier to overcome the wall but now you can hit the wall so hard that you find it just easier to quit.

I remember heroic spine, and as much as i hated it, i like it more than current bosses because progression, and the means to attain the tools needed to overcome it, felt more within reach
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Worldie » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:04 am

Disagree.

In the Cata model, the idea was "If you hit the wall, don't worry cause it will eventually be dumbed down so much that you can kill it".
You didn't improve in this model, the content just was made easier.

The current model is "If you hit the wall, you improve and pass the wall".
Remember more or less none of the bosses of ToT (Bar maybe the last handful) are DPS checks: They are all about not failing at mechanics.

Even the so dreaded Horridon, is just about "kill adds, interrupt anything that's interruptable, don't stand in shit, loot".


I think I could dig up several posts from DS era, with people complaining "We don't like the debuff mechanic, cause killing it after another wave of debuff just feels bad".
Surprised to see the same people now complaining about the new syste,.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:17 am

I dont think i ever complained about the raid debuff.

That said, even if the content was dumbed down, you still needed to do the mechanics on several of the fights, so its not like it was 30% = insta loot on heroic like you imply it is. Maybe could be true with players like yourself, but really... You are an outlier.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Teranoid » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:27 am

Klaudandus wrote:Previous tiers at least made it easier to overcome the wall but now you can hit the wall so hard that you find it just easier to quit.


With all due respect if the difficulty of a boss makes you want to quit you shouldn't raiding to start with.

Halabar wrote:OMG... the trashfest... the stupidity on the last boss... finally got it last night with 7 freeking stacks. Lame loot table for that wing (for a hunter with my current gear).

NOT GOING BACK. I'll be content with first wing that drops more stuff and is much more tolerable.


Ji-Kun is a joke. Our group ended up deciding after the third nest that it wasn't even worth taking dps off the boss and just burned the boss. Got a little out of control near the 5% mark but still killed it easily. Then again if I can't get into the new LFR in the first few hours the server is up I don't bother. If I can't catch a group of mostly raider mains or alts and get stuck with the retarded masses I save myself the trouble and just don't bother.

That being said Gary The Snail is now the deadliest raid boss. We had probably 20 deaths on the trash as opposed to the maybe 6 deaths we had on bosses.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Winkle » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:42 am

Teranoid wrote:
With all due respect if the difficulty of a boss makes you want to quit you shouldn't raiding to start with.


I don't think that would be considered to be very good game design. And is part of the reason LFR was actually introduced in the 1st place.

It's interesting that if Klaudandus and his entire guild quite the game it's considered their problem and not Blizzard's. I suspect Blizzard might take a different view.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby halabar » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:42 am

Teranoid wrote:
Halabar wrote:OMG... the trashfest... the stupidity on the last boss... finally got it last night with 7 freeking stacks. Lame loot table for that wing (for a hunter with my current gear).

NOT GOING BACK. I'll be content with first wing that drops more stuff and is much more tolerable.


Ji-Kun is a joke. Our group ended up deciding after the third nest that it wasn't even worth taking dps off the boss and just burned the boss. Got a little out of control near the 5% mark but still killed it easily. Then again if I can't get into the new LFR in the first few hours the server is up I don't bother. If I can't catch a group of mostly raider mains or alts and get stuck with the retarded masses I save myself the trouble and just don't bother.

That being said Gary The Snail is now the deadliest raid boss. We had probably 20 deaths on the trash as opposed to the maybe 6 deaths we had on bosses.


Either the heals or the bottom end of the dps were not up to that. We were trying focusing on the boss, and were still wiping at 20-40%. Didn't help that each time 4-5 people dropped so we'ed have new idiots who hadn't seen the boss and/or bitter ones because they were getting the last boss. Add in an AFKer and idiots who had to do it their own way..

7 freeking stacks before it died. Add in that trash.. Add in crappy loot table (from my personal gear needs), and never going back unless I need that lfr tier leg token.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Teranoid » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:55 am

Winkle wrote:
Teranoid wrote:
With all due respect if the difficulty of a boss makes you want to quit you shouldn't raiding to start with.


I don't think that would be considered to be very good game design. And is part of the reason LFR was actually introduced in the 1st place.

It's interesting that if Klaudandus and his entire guild quite the game it's considered their problem and not Blizzard's. I suspect Blizzard might take a different view.


It's impossible, not to mention delusional, to expect Blizzard to make content that will keep every single person interested and to even hint at the fact that people throwing in the towel for whatever reason is solely on Blizzard is laughable. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out good portion of the playerbase is all about the "Gimme gimme gimme" and if bosses don't fall over in the first two weeks it's a design flaw and not a flaw in their execution/raid comp. I'm not saying Klaud's group didn't make the effort because as we've all read they tried. I just don't subscribe to the theory that the best way to overcome something it to simply throw your hands up and walk away.

It's so much easier to blame someone else than it is to admit the fact that it quite possibly could be yourself.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Winkle » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:10 am

Teranoid wrote:It's so much easier to blame someone else than it is to admit the fact that it quite possibly could be yourself.


TBH it doesn't matter who's at fault, if people are walking away from the game, whatever the reason, then its probably something Blizzard would be concerned about.

The whole reason LFR was introduced was partly because telling people to man up or shut up wasn't going to cut it.

I'm not sure why so many people are against trying to solve this issue anyway, a more popular wow is better for everyone assuming that solving an issue doesn't influence other people's content.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:12 am

We could have eked out a wee bit more hps and wee bit more dps out of our raid in general... Had vp gear not being locked behind rep...

I am almost sure we could have killed garalon as early as two weeks before xmas had not this been the case.

That was the problem, really... To improve, my raiders were pretty much told to do stuff that they had no real interest in, be it lfr or dailies (to get the rep), but also was said that this was optional... Some tried and got burned out and quit... Others didnt bother and were accused of holding the team back.

Again, this was not a problem in previous expansions...
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Flex » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:17 am

Klaudandus wrote:We could have gotten over that bump if more VP stuff was not behind the rep to be honest... several of our raiders didnt like doing dailies...


So I'm guessing everyone was extremely unlucky in MSV? Because that looks to be a sure place better to get 489 gear for guilds that can clear it.

Blaming it on lack of Valor gear seems like a copout for a guild that can clear MSV.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:20 am

Flex wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:We could have gotten over that bump if more VP stuff was not behind the rep to be honest... several of our raiders didnt like doing dailies...


So I'm guessing everyone was extremely unlucky in MSV? Because that looks to be a sure place better to get 489 gear for guilds that can clear it.

Blaming it on lack of Valor gear seems like a copout for a guild that can clear MSV.


Actually, yes... Our frost dk and our fury warrior never got weapons better than the lfr ones because they never dropped in msv

Never saw trinkets from msv either...
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Flex » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:23 am

Klaudandus wrote:Actually, yes... Our frost dk and our fury warrior never got weapons better than the lfr ones because they never dropped in msv

Never saw trinkets from msv either...


Oh noes! Of course weapons have never been a valor item ever (unless you want to count a few hundred badges of justice in TBC and off hands in LK) so those are completely irrelevant to the valor gear issue.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Bellanka » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:25 am

Flex wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:We could have gotten over that bump if more VP stuff was not behind the rep to be honest... several of our raiders didnt like doing dailies...


So I'm guessing everyone was extremely unlucky in MSV? Because that looks to be a sure place better to get 489 gear for guilds that can clear it.

Blaming it on lack of Valor gear seems like a copout for a guild that can clear MSV.


That makes it sound like a flaw in execution as opposed to gear. Were people taking cleaves when they didn't need to (ie, when picking up pheremones off tanks or others/kite path issue), or not moving out of pheremones before they dropped (stutter-stepping, seeing the orb animation that loads before it drops into a pool), thus draining healer mana? Were DPS not gemmed/enchanted properly, or executing loose/poor rotations? Were people not taking advantage of cleaves as much as they could have? Maybe not enough DPS on legs and more people focusing the body?
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