What's up with T15?

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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Darielle » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:27 pm

Heh. Actually, we don't have any/many new raiders - a lot of the group's been together since ICC at least. We're just ... average. Not elite, or even "very good". People here make all kinds of assumptions about DPS numbers and stuff which are just way too high.

We had a horrific time on Stone Guards. The people here don't seem to realize that DPS-ing on the move is a rather advanced skill - when Amethyst and Cobalt were up, we had people doing 25k that do like 65k on Feng. We were "doing the mechanics correctly" - get out of pools, away from mines, swap dogs (mostly correctly) and never had a problem with Jasper Chains. Just didn't have the DPS with all the movement. *shrug*


Unfortunately, that's not "average" either.

There is a basic minimum, and it's not set very high. Dealing damage on the move isn't an advanced skill - for most it's just "Hit this button while moving". For several classes now, it's no change at all because they're allowed to do everything on the move.

At some point, there is the cutoff where people below the cutoff simply have to learn how to push buttons, because if their numbers are lower than the 50k or whatever required, they're simply not. Blizzard's tuning doesn't expect perfect play in dps numbers, but there is a lower bound. Jin'Rokh himself is doable if the people in your raid would be capable of doing roughly 65-70k in a stand still (because you get a 40% damage buff for most of the fight). That is really not very high - to give you an idea, it's a slight step up from the requirements for Gara'jal on Normal mode.

For those of us above average, Jin'rokh presents a kill on the second pool. There are 4.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:32 pm

Rhiannon wrote:Well, I don't know that Nika would describe her raid team as elite, but anyway. And frankly, if a guild that raids 6 hours a week and had to cancel maybe 1/3 of their raids last tier can manage to clear normal, I'd say normal's tuned pretty well. At a certain point there has to be an incentive for people to actually try to get better.

So much of THIS.

Seriously.

We raid 6 hours a week, of which a ton of raids were cancelled in the months we did T14. We were lucky to complete normal mode (and a few gimpy heroics) before 5.2.

TBH, with comments like "T14 normal is too hard", I'm surprised you players didn't die off with Cata's release version of heroic dungeons. It seems to me those suckers were harder than T14 normal.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby econ21 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:01 pm

Nikachelle wrote:TBH, with comments like "T14 normal is too hard", I'm surprised you players didn't die off with Cata's release version of heroic dungeons.


My guild did. It only came back together when they started to nerf Firelands. I am sure there was a lot of RL stuff, but the difficulty probably was a factor. I'm not saying they were too hard - I loved those 5 mans. But Blizzard said they were too hard, as so many players thought so.

I'm not saying tier 14 was too hard either, but perhaps they could have nerfed Elegon and Garalon sooner, and a bit harder. Blizzard have pretty much admitted as much, saying they want fewer dps checks in normal raids.

One thing to understand is that each player is just one person and can only do so much for the team. You can have individuals who are WoL ranked healers, tanks and dps but if you have a clump of others who significantly underperform or worse, never turn up in numbers to raid, then you are stuck. It's a simple matter of maths - WoL tells you the dps required to kill a boss and if you haven't got it, you wont kill it whatever your raid's mastery of mechanics. I guess you could server transfer - maybe that defines the non-casual raider; one who would leave friends to progress.

Jabari wrote:For the record, I'm not complaining about the difficulty of ToT. I'm complaining about ToT LFR dropping higher ilvl stuff than T14 normal, and that there's no reason for even doing T14 any longer. Well, no reason related to "progression", at least


As someone who has just killed Garalon (and has friends stuck on Elegon), I am in a similar position to what you describe for the "average". But I disagree with what you say in the quote above. It's essential ToT LFR drop better stuff than T14 otherwise the whole questionable experience would become an exercism in masochism. LFR is a big deal for slowly progressing guilds - both for gear and for something to do when you don't have enough signups or whenever.

As for ToT LFR making tier 14 redundant, it's only about a 16% chance to drop loot per boss. I got three pieces on my main and alt this week - all 502 necks, yay! A big upgrade on my 522 VP necks, sigh. ToT LFR seems horribly time inefficient atm. Horrendous queues, partial clears, healers quitting and keeping you waiting for tens of minutes for replacements, buffs stacking to 4 for a boss kill. I'm feel I'm mainly doing it for the SPA rep atm.

By contrast, breaking through to TES is a big priority for my guild as that will greatly supplement our gear. We only raid 1 night and HoF seems rather a slog for less reward, so will skip it as soon as we can. 496 weapons, trinkets, normal tier rather than LFR tier should make a big difference.

We're adopting a four pronged approach to gearing up for Horridon: (1) ToT LFR; (2) T14 10N; (3) SPA VP gear; (4) Jin Rokh 522 drops. Skip anyone of those and you will be slowing down your pogression somewhat.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Darielle » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:10 pm

I'm not saying tier 14 was too hard either, but perhaps they could have nerfed Elegon and Garalon sooner, and a bit harder. Blizzard have pretty much admitted as much, saying they want fewer dps checks in normal raids.


They nerfed Garalon within a week to add a minute to his Berserk timer on all modes :P
A lot of people never even really saw the unnerfed form.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Newsom » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:33 am

econ21 wrote:We're adopting a four pronged approach to gearing up for Horridon: (1) ToT LFR; (2) T14 10N; (3) SPA VP gear; (4) Jin Rokh 522 drops. Skip anyone of those and you will be slowing down your pogression somewhat.


Horridon is not a gear check. Do the fight correctly and it will die.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Nooska » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:41 am

Nikachelle wrote:
Rhiannon wrote:Well, I don't know that Nika would describe her raid team as elite, but anyway. And frankly, if a guild that raids 6 hours a week and had to cancel maybe 1/3 of their raids last tier can manage to clear normal, I'd say normal's tuned pretty well. At a certain point there has to be an incentive for people to actually try to get better.

So much of THIS.

Seriously.

We raid 6 hours a week, of which a ton of raids were cancelled in the months we did T14. We were lucky to complete normal mode (and a few gimpy heroics) before 5.2.

TBH, with comments like "T14 normal is too hard", I'm surprised you players didn't die off with Cata's release version of heroic dungeons. It seems to me those suckers were harder than T14 normal.

I just have to comment.
Amount of hours raiding and amount of cancellations say nothing of skill, just about how easy or hard it has been to find time.

Rule of Thumb - people reading MT are above average. People actually participating will be a step above that. Now each person does not a raidgroup make of course, but please people, don't try to make out that the crowd posting here is "average" - most of us are quite a few steps above that, and those of us that get stuck, usually get stuck due to calendar problems (for us or the raid group) or becaue of other issues that preclude being in a guild of equally skilled people.

My guild got stuck, and dismantled at 5/6 MSV and 2/6 HoF - because we lsot a good group of our previously core raiders going in to MoP - Cata we were 11/12 (or was it 10/11) FL hc before DS came out, DS was also quite a lo of heroics till we finally said "enough raiding tis expansion" - so we never cleared DS heroic, but had we gone on we would have had it cleared (barring fatigue).
That raid group was very good. Losing half of it (and key positions like 1 tank gone, me switching to DPS due to scheduling problems, and basically all outr healers) meant we had to bring in new people - not an easy task on an OLD server - its quite populous, but a significant portion are not young anymore, and have too many RL things going on to commit to a raid schedule (and yes a lot of the young ones were weaned on wrath or cata).
I remember TBC and I liked the difficulty. I liked the slow progression, and noone minded that we only killed Vashj once - we even got to kill Archi pre-nerf.

All that trambling and I'm not quite sure what point I was building to) - but lets just keep focused - we are not average, and if we find the difficulty "just right", its overtuned (at least slightly). If we find it slightly difficult it will seem like a brick wall to average players.

As to the "can easily do it wit ilvl 496" - yes, most of us here can do that - most of us here can probably do it in lower ilvl gear - but when we add in all the others in a raidgroup - be it 10 or 25 man - the everage skill level will drop for most of us, meaning more gear. I don't care that I can pump out enough dps in ilvl 470 gear to down elegon, when only one other dps in my raidgroup can do the same, and we are both beating the better geard dps - that means its an (ilvl+skill)/2 problem, and the only realistic way to upgrade is ilvl, then tuning around a specific ilvl becomes a problem - especially when that average ilvl has been stated to be higher than the previous tiers max ilvl for normal modes.

Blue statement is that you need an ilvl of 500 to get past boss X (I haven't stepped foot in ToT even in lfr yet, so I'm not up to scratch on what boss it is and it really doesn't matter), meaning that its been desighned to block you at boss 1 to x-1 for however many weeks it takes for the average group to get geared up beyond ilvl 500.
LFR just became progression instead of catch-up. Its not the ilvl in LFR that makes it progression, its the tuning of normal modes to require gear that the LFR provides, for average raidgroups to be able to progress.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Sagara » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:23 am

Before we go too far on this thing - what IS progression?

Does it include anything that improves performance (willfully including consumables farming/rep dailies)?
Or just each and every group content that can improve performance? From Heroics to LFR 14 to Normal 14 and LFR 15 to Normal 15 to Heroic 15?
Or is it the path with the least steps to the current end of the game (Ra-Den)? From Heroics to Normal 14 to Normal 15 to Heroic 15?

Of course LFR and rep grinds will help progress, in the same way that enchant/gems/flasks will help, but does that make them progress?

Case in point - I was in a very similar position to Nika, with 4 Sha kills and 4 heroics bosses. We're now at 6/12 Normal, even after switching from 2 10-men to one 25-man for this tier.
It is *very* possible to be late to the party and spring into T15 once T14 is completed, even without using LFR T15/Shao-pan rep. It won't be *easy*, it won't be *optimal*, but definitly possible.

Now, moving from there to something Nooska mentionned back then, another, way bigger issue is the return of guild poaching - you can't really jump-start a new raider into T15 as fast as you could in T9/10/12/13. So this means a decently-geared player from a struggling guild is a very tempting target for guilds looking to replace lost members.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:21 am

Nooska wrote:I just have to comment.
Amount of hours raiding and amount of cancellations say nothing of skill, just about how easy or hard it has been to find time.

Rule of Thumb - people reading MT are above average. People actually participating will be a step above that. Now each person does not a raidgroup make of course, but please people, don't try to make out that the crowd posting here is "average" - most of us are quite a few steps above that, and those of us that get stuck, usually get stuck due to calendar problems (for us or the raid group) or becaue of other issues that preclude being in a guild of equally skilled people.

This is not entirely relevant. Yes, members of our raid group visit maintankadin and read up stuff on how to do well. But that doesn't mean everyone we raid with does. And it doesn't automatically mean people who read here actually do well when they play - the fact that we're having this discussion demonstrates that.


When you talk about "average" groups, what is the sample? All guilds, including the ones who don't intend to do any organised raiding? All guilds that raid regularly in an organised group?

What do people think Blizz should balance raids around? The "average" of the self-selected group of active raiders that they already balance for, or the "average" WoW player overall, with the idea that any player regardless of experience should be able to wander into a raid and progress just as fast as others?

And if the answer is the latter - why?
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Winkle » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:08 am

It's obviously pretty difficult to define what the average guild is. Looking at wow progress for T14 the average guild achieved 6/6MSV and 3/6HoF.

I still think there's a gap between LFR and what's on offer for guild groups that want something more organized than lfr. Perhaps though these guilds are happy with continued progression through T14. I'm really only basing my arguments/assertions off of a few cases known to me from my own server where a perceived lack of progression has led them to stop raiding, something which i don't think is positive for the game.

I think Blizzard need to approach getting more people raiding from more than 1 angle, especially as their current fix doesn't really feel very mmo when you can queue solo and complete without any communication.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Lieris » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:51 am

In the TBC days we were more than happy if we got one new boss down a week. Now self-confessed mediocre players are upset if they can't kill the end bosses of a tier or are wiping a bit on a raid that is 2 weeks old.

Puuhhh-lease.

We used to have laughably easy normal modes and then a big spike in difficulty for hard modes making the step up very difficult. It also meant that those who were happy just doing normal had very unsatisfying content because they had difficulty motivating the group to try the "real" raiding because not many care to do the same fights but with one new add/debuff and a bit more damage.

I don't play the game so I might way off but to me this seems like a good thing.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Bellanka » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:09 am

The definition for "average" and "casual" isn't one we're all going to agree on, but that's not even the real problem here. The problem is that some people, regardless of classifications/titles/whatever, are having problems progressing past a certain point.

Where I agree: Having the stopgap being the second boss in the instance for some people, especially after the ease of the first boss, is a little rough. People WANT to see the new content, they want to feel it's accessible, and (this is the real distinction that some people seem to be missing) they want to be able to experience this with their team/friends. These people don't see LFR as "their" option, they see it as beneath them as their definition of a hard core raider would.

Let's be completely honest here: Jin'Rokh is a tease. He makes the instance seem like it's no harder than Stone Guards or Protectors. Just like a good book sets the tone in the hook, so too does a first boss set people's expectations for a raid zone. Sure, the boss is easy, that leads people to expect the next boss will be a wee bit harder, and not a swift kick to their sensitive areas.

Where I disagree: People throwing around random ilevels as a necessary gear level. No. It's not. There is absolutely nothing stopping people from playing their class/role better to surpass these encounters with weaker gear. While I do agree that having Horridon be the stopgap--and that Horridon can indeed be challenging because of the mechanics--is infuriating if you're expecting access to gear to fix this for you then you're looking in the wrong direction for your success. I'd be more inclined to agree with this on Megaera, but not Horridon.

I see quite a few people who believe the only way to make the content more accessible is to bring the content down to a lower relative degree of ease but not enough people looking for ways to bring themselves and their team to the level of the content. I see comments where people are struggling with early MSV bosses and feel they're coordinated, that people are properly gemmed/enchanted and prepared - but where's the accountability? Could the problem be your raid leaders aren't clearly defining what they want from you or changing their tactics to work for your team? (One of the biggest causes of this I saw when raiding in Friends/Family guilds were Raid Leaders copying a cookie cutter strat that just does not work for your composition, or themselves misunderstanding mechanics/making bad calls.) Could it be that you have certain people holding you back that just don't want to improve and only show up to get lewtz/out of a sense of responsibility/boredom?

There's ONE way Blizzard can bring the content to you: by retuning it to make it easier.

There are MANY more ways for you to bring yourselves to the content.

At the risk of sounding apologetic, I do agree that Horridon is unjustly difficult for people at my definition of a casual/friends&family level, but that in no way makes him impossible. The amount of coordination it requires (DPS check made more difficult by focus/priority target switching, interrupts, movement, quick switches to different mechanics, and to a lesser degree urgency/anxiety) makes the boss a steep change in difficulty over Jin'Rokh (tauntswap, drop the lightning ball outside of raid, stack for heals, repeat 3-4 times and win). The expectation is that you should progress through all the normal mode bosses quickly, and that's where the real flaw lays. It is not reasonable to expect Blizzard to bring content down in line with an unquantifiable level of casual/average, but it is far more reasonable to expect the level of average/casual to rise to the content level Blizzard has delivered.

tl;dr: If you can't dunk the ball the answer isn't to lower the hoop, it's to work on your jump.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby halabar » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:56 am

Bellanka wrote:tl;dr: If you can't dunk the ball the answer isn't to lower the hoop, it's to work on your jump.


But if you are 5'2" that ain't gonna work. :wink:
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby halabar » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:58 am

econ21 wrote:
Jabari wrote:For the record, I'm not complaining about the difficulty of ToT. I'm complaining about ToT LFR dropping higher ilvl stuff than T14 normal, and that there's no reason for even doing T14 any longer. Well, no reason related to "progression", at least


As someone who has just killed Garalon (and has friends stuck on Elegon), I am in a similar position to what you describe for the "average". But I disagree with what you say in the quote above. It's essential ToT LFR drop better stuff than T14 otherwise the whole questionable experience would become an exercism in masochism. LFR is a big deal for slowly progressing guilds - both for gear and for something to do when you don't have enough signups or whenever.

We're adopting a four pronged approach to gearing up for Horridon: (1) ToT LFR; (2) T14 10N; (3) SPA VP gear; (4) Jin Rokh 522 drops. Skip anyone of those and you will be slowing down your pogression somewhat.


This. And the challenge for anyone in a more casual guild is getting everyone to put in that effort.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Bellanka » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:15 am

halabar wrote:
Bellanka wrote:tl;dr: If you can't dunk the ball the answer isn't to lower the hoop, it's to work on your jump.


But if you are 5'2" that ain't gonna work. :wink:


That sounds like an excuse to not even bother trying ;)

Also, your height isn't in your control ... your ability to improve, improvise, and inspire others to do the same is.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Sagara » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:47 am

Pet theory of mine: guilds have face a somewhat easier barrier in Ds and maybe before. Along the way, some people joined guilds, people that never faced the walls many among is have had. Also, some among us mayhave changed a bit, due to responsibilties or tastes.

End result, when the brutal climb of MoP came, guilds weren't ready, and it's now we realise exactly how things had lapsed.

Opinions?
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