What's up with T15?

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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby samsara » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:30 am

hm, i think more the problem is "what you expecting is not what you get" , quite a lot of people tend to think that they have to clear everything in the first week. We did it on normal, but even as a guild wich has 1/12 heroic our goal is "only" to get one boss per week which gives us a timeframe of 12 weeks (3 month) to come close to the endboss. Sure , i love it following the progress race but i'm not expecting my guild somewhere near those guys. A friend of mine which plays very casual in a small 10 man raiding guild is at 4/12 (normal) at the moment and thats fine, if you think that "Normal"-Mode is exactly aimed at people who don't have time for 3-4 raids / week and think of probably 3-4 month until next tier those guilds will be definitly at 12/12 normal and maybe a 1-4 heroic when 5.4 is released, its perfect.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Kai » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:38 am

benebarba wrote:
Kai wrote:I think normal modes are WAY over the top in MoP. LFR is ok and all, but it's just really, really terrible compared to raiding with a couple of friends. But these normal raids are way overtuned for grabbing just a few random guys that haven't done any raiding and go have some fun.


I believe that what we are currently seeing is precisely the design intent based on the blues' comments. It seems more that you are one of the not-insignificant group of players that fall in between the LFR/Normal 'groups': you want a challenge, but don't have 10/25 folks to do it regularly and so the normal modes are a bit out of reach, and LFR is far too easy (and is not a closed group). Challenge modes don't really help since they don't really help gear progression (other ways to get VP and non-mog loot) and may not be of interest. At least now (T15) you can do the T14 normals, which still retain the mechanical challenges, even if gear and nerfs have made some of the requirements a bit more lax. You may end up with some upgrades too, depending on how lucky you've been in LFR.

If it weren't for finding a hodge-podge mixed raid group made up of players from guilds that fizzled last tier, I'd probably be in the same boat.


nah, I'm in a reasonable raid, it's more from the pov of my alts and some casuals that I helped with my alts here and there. My guild used to be a 25 men fairly hardcore guild but eventually went 10 men as no one wanted to do the work-part that a 25 men guild brings with it. But from those times we still have a pretty big roster of casuals/ex-raiders that just log on here and there. We used to have an alt raid going with that group. Lots of fluctuation, sometimes better geared people, sometimes worse. But in MoP I tried that once but doing mogu-vaults with people barely in 463 stuff ...

Getting that done would have meant quite a bit of wiping. One progression raid on my main is enough for my taste. And if people that don't play much currently but used to be in a top 50 guild have problems doing normal mode (sure, undergeared, don't know the fights, but in reality everything is similar to something in the past), stuff feels overtuned for me.

They made a big thing out of making everything more accessible after WotlK. Exaclty for the reason you stated above, only the other direction:
Ulduar was NOT accessible enough. They were very unhappy with how few people actually got to see those raids. You don't even want to mention stuff like original Naxx and Sunwell. A super tiny fraction of the player base actually saw those before the next expansion hit.

But now it seems LFR is the only part of raiding widely available. Maybe that's enough, but personally I loathe LFR. I can't stand the attitude of lots of people, it drives me mad if some retards are just afk the whole run and expecting to get carried.
I just want to be able to grab a group of reasonable geared friends that don't care nearly as much for raiding as I do and go and kill some 10 men bosses. But that's apparently not really intended atm, at least not in the current tier, that only works with 5.1 content.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Kai » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:48 am

samsara wrote:hm, i think more the problem is "what you expecting is not what you get" , quite a lot of people tend to think that they have to clear everything in the first week. We did it on normal, but even as a guild wich has 1/12 heroic our goal is "only" to get one boss per week which gives us a timeframe of 12 weeks (3 month) to come close to the endboss. Sure , i love it following the progress race but i'm not expecting my guild somewhere near those guys. A friend of mine which plays very casual in a small 10 man raiding guild is at 4/12 (normal) at the moment and thats fine, if you think that "Normal"-Mode is exactly aimed at people who don't have time for 3-4 raids / week and think of probably 3-4 month until next tier those guilds will be definitly at 12/12 normal and maybe a 1-4 heroic when 5.4 is released, its perfect.


Yeah, and my point is that I don't understand that stance. Raiding should be a big part of PvE. Surely they do not expect people to run the same 5 mens for a whole expansion. So what do they want people to do in the game? Dailies and nothing else? That's ridiculous. They put so much effort into the raiding instances yet the only way to experience them without investing a non-trivial amount of time is stupid LFR where every second sentence is some 14y old talking about someone's mum and every 3rd word is yolo or l2p? Is that really the experience they want to give casual players?

My whole point is that the attitude of " if you think that "Normal"-Mode is exactly aimed at people who don't have time for 3-4 raids / week and think of probably 3-4 month until next tier those guilds will be definitly at 12/12 normal " is silly. It shouldn't be expected to be in a somewhat organized raiding environment just to be able to clear normal modes.
That's TERRIBLE game design imo. With this content design a way too big fraction of the player base can't do current content raids outside of LFR. I really don't understand the reasoning behind that.

And again, it's not a 'this is too complicated' whine. I have completed every raid/heroic raid before the next content patch/expansion since the game was released. But I just don't understand why casuals log in after not playing for some weeks/months as there's a content patch with a new raid, then ask me if I think they can run a semi-pug to see some of the new instance and I tell them that it just isn't reasonably doable without quite a bit of effort..
I just can't get behind that design, dunno.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby benebarba » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:08 am

Kai wrote:My whole point is that the attitude of " if you think that "Normal"-Mode is exactly aimed at people who don't have time for 3-4 raids / week and think of probably 3-4 month until next tier those guilds will be definitly at 12/12 normal " is silly. It shouldn't be expected to be in a somewhat organized raiding environment just to be able to clear normal modes.
That's TERRIBLE game design imo. With this content design a way too big fraction of the player base can't do current content raids outside of LFR. I really don't understand the reasoning behind that.


Well, the less-than 'somewhat organized' (not sure if this means the same thing to me as you) raiding environment is a bit difficult to design around without trivializing it for organized groups.

If you assume that 1) there isn't someone there to give directions clearly and coherently (i.e. The Raid Leader in an organized raid group) and 2) that communications and coordination between members may be slow or nonexistant (i.e. no instant voice chat calls or raid warnings to 'command the troops', folks not responding instantly to changes, not coordinating cooldowns, etc.), you are left with very few options to make content challenging for a group. Because really, what you have is a pile of people in the same room, not a coherent group functioning together toward an end.

If you look at making 'normal' content accessible from the outset for 'less than organized' groups, I feel you are limited mechanically. Tank-n-spank DPS fests are possible, simple tank-swaps or tank-roles (add/boss, etc) are possible, clear phase fights (where coordination up front is possible). Look at the Baradin Hold or VoA bosses. Would you *really* like a tier full of those?

Really, it kind of makes sense that LFR has eliminated some mechanics from fights, because that's where the complexity and group challenge really comes from. Requiring people put out higher numbers isn't really complexity IMO (and gear 'nerfing' and actual numbers nerfs help that - something they are using this time to keep older non-LFR tiers somewhat relevant). Do I think they could improve on the current model? Yep. But doing it by adding in another raid difficulty, or reducing the raid difficulty from the outset probably isn't the best way to go overall.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby halabar » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:18 am

benebarba wrote: Do I think they could improve on the current model? Yep. But doing it by adding in another raid difficulty, or reducing the raid difficulty from the outset probably isn't the best way to go overall.


Realistically, there isn't another way to add that next level of granularity. And if you did, it would be even harder to organize groups into the correct "levels". As others have said, with the previous tier still viable, that does provide that other option for more casual and less skilled groups (like my current team).

Heck, ToT LFR is no picnic either for people going in there blind.

The only real change I would make is probably make the first real normal cockblock at fight 4 or so, instead of fight #2.

The other thing that is forgotten here is that LFR does allow everyone to see the content, so Blizz can and has up the difficulty level, rather that nerf the content more so their design efforts aren't totally wasted.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:31 am

I really can't believe we're arguing that LFR is too accessible and normal is not. I don't like LFR myself, but Blizzard really can't win in this situation. They've tried to give casual players who don't have a lot of time to waste the option to do raids and get gear. It's right there. It's unorganized and it's full of idiots simply because of what it is. If normal was to be less tuned than it is, then you'd be looking at LFR in a 10 man format.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Winkle » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:06 am

benebarba wrote:Yep. But doing it by adding in another raid difficulty, or reducing the raid difficulty from the outset probably isn't the best way to go overall.


I'm not sure there's another way to address it other than reducing difficulty though.

On my server (which i assume isn't unique) there's numerous guilds that are co-ordinated enough to be guilded, with an external website and voice coms and regular raid days that can't progress past Jin'rokh. Sure they could go back to T14 but they've already spent 4-6 months attempting to clear the place and probably running lfr for it weekly. I imagine there as tired of it as everyone else.

I think to expect them to spend another month or more in there whilst others progress in new content is foolish, and simply won't happen. It's far more likely that they'll simply stop raiding and possibly quit the game.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Jabari » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:20 am

Background: My guild is mostly older players, consisting of old college friends and current coworkers and such. We raid once a week, for about three to four hours. We (as a group) are ... somewhat lacking in skill - we have a couple of very good players, and a lot of what I would call "average" players - they don't get out of fire right away all the time, they do 75% of max-simcraft DPS, etc.

That said, we're not "full of idiots", either. We're organized, have voice comms, pick up fight mechnaics fairly well (if not perfectly, or right away), and don't do completely stupid things. We are all completely gemmed/enchanted, use flasks and feasts, and so on.


We absolutely had the worst time in MV. We (barely) got past Spirit Kings before the nerf, and now can get up TO Elegon every week (which we weren't before - Stone Guards still stopped us cold some weeks), but haven't gotten past it yet. (Haven't had a ton of attempts yet, though).

The 10% nerf for 5.0 raids "feels" to me to be the correct tuning for a group like ours - we should progress at a reasonable pace now, a new boss down every couple of weeks or thereabouts. (Or about - 10% is a bit much, 7.5% would have been perfect. For our group.)

The problem is that the ILVL for the new LFR (and new VP stuff) totally outclasses anything we can get in "our" content. This seems like a huge flaw to me - if LFR is supposed to be "catch-up", then it should give no higher than ilvl 496.

With it at 502, we're simply going to DE most drops in "our" content! It's not like we can really go on and do ToT either - it's too hard (for our group) - it's no fun to get stuck on the first boss for 2 months again!

What, exactly, is "our" content supposed to be?
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby halabar » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:40 am

Jabari wrote:Background: My guild is mostly older players, consisting of old college friends and current coworkers and such. We raid once a week, for about three to four hours. We (as a group) are ... somewhat lacking in skill - we have a couple of very good players, and a lot of what I would call "average" players - they don't get out of fire right away all the time, they do 75% of max-simcraft DPS, etc.

That said, we're not "full of idiots", either. We're organized, have voice comms, pick up fight mechnaics fairly well (if not perfectly, or right away), and don't do completely stupid things. We are all completely gemmed/enchanted, use flasks and feasts, and so on.

With it at 502, we're simply going to DE most drops in "our" content! It's not like we can really go on and do ToT either - it's too hard (for our group) - it's no fun to get stuck on the first boss for 2 months again!

What, exactly, is "our" content supposed to be?


You in my raid team?.. :shock: :wink: (my group also has a lot of new raiders)

I wouldn't worry about the LFR drops as much as the new rep valor purchases, since they are 522.

But really the LFR drops AND the rep gear should be pushing your team, and mine, through T14 faster, and on into T15 eventually.

The first boss doesn't seem to be the issue, it's the second boss. What remains to be seen is if your group or mine can get past Horridon with enough gear but with our "average" skill set.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:42 am

Stacking Determination for raids that is removeable by the raid leader; boss drops lose 1 iLvl per stack?

I don't know. Bliz is stuck with either having people complain that content is too easy and boring, or too difficult and inaccessible. It isn't incumbent on Blizzard to make sure every raid group can clear all current content, or even current-1, is it? On the other hand, they do want players to be enjoying themselves (and continuing to subscribe).

I think they do have a very good idea on what kind of progression numbers they consider "acceptable." If their magic number of raids aren't clearing certain bosses, they address those bosses. Some groups will still not be able to reach those levels of performance. Can Blizzard accommodate these groups? *Should* Blizzard be trying?

I remember at a blizzcon a few years ago during the Raids&Dungeons Q&A someone asked when they were going to make Raiding "more accessible, because they really missed the mark with Karazhan." The developers just kind of looked at each other and said, "we disagree."

Is there really anything they can do for these kinds of groups?
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby halabar » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:46 am

fuzzygeek wrote:I remember at a blizzcon a few years ago during the Raids&Dungeons Q&A someone asked when they were going to make Raiding "more accessible, because they really missed the mark with Karazhan." The developers just kind of looked at each other and said, "we disagree."

Is there really anything they can do for these kinds of groups?


They did. LFR.

I'll be the first to admit the lack of skill in my team, and the fact that they will need the LFR and valor gear as noted above to push into T15.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Winkle » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:50 am

Wasn't Karazhan pretty damn hard when it was initially released? TBH i wasn't around then so perhaps shouldn't comment.

I agree they can't make everyone happy all of the time, but it does seem they've decided to make raids more challenging, which isn't what i was expecting.

And whilst the normal and heroic modes provide ample content for my guild, my server as a whole is suffering as many guilds just can't progress through the content other than in LFR, which many regard as far from ideal/enjoyable content.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:54 am

I personally like how T15 is.

But the problem is the group of people who see themselves as above LFR and can't get past the second boss of ToT. It's a new tier...it's going to be harder and the ilvl requirement is going to be higher. It'd be stupid and, nay I say it, boring as shit if T15 had the same ilvl requirement as ToES or HoF. It has to be harder. While I respect the people who want to raid and see normal mode raids, I think the vast majority of people need to understand that if they haven't even cleared T14, T15 isn't where they should be (and if they are attempting, not complaining about the difficulty).

If you want to be in a normal mode raid group, you probably need to bite the bullet and app to a slightly better guild than the one you're in.

It's really just a catch-22 that Blizzard has here. Sure, LFR is boring and well, full of idiots (no offense to anyone who does LFR religiously); but Blizzard has stated it is a catch up to gear and the tuning for the bosses in normal mode is, imo, spot on. Sure, a few things need to be changed, but I don't think Blizzard sees it as such. They even said the bosses aren't really tuned around ilvl so much as mechanic execution (within reason I must add cause if you're sitting at 490 ilvl, don't expect to get past Council). Use this new LFR and the Rep gear to get through T14, gear up and then push in. Sure it's slow and everyone wants to raid the new content as soon as it's out, but unfortunately, you need to be able to meet the chec kmarks: IE: gear level, mechanic execution, class skill (in no order).

That's just how it is, to me.



(And I know I used 'you' a lot, it's not directed at anyone, just how I was typing).
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby benebarba » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:09 am

Winkle wrote:
benebarba wrote:Yep. But doing it by adding in another raid difficulty, or reducing the raid difficulty from the outset probably isn't the best way to go overall.


I'm not sure there's another way to address it other than reducing difficulty though.

On my server (which i assume isn't unique) there's numerous guilds that are co-ordinated enough to be guilded, with an external website and voice coms and regular raid days that can't progress past Jin'rokh. Sure they could go back to T14 but they've already spent 4-6 months attempting to clear the place and probably running lfr for it weekly. I imagine there as tired of it as everyone else.

I think to expect them to spend another month or more in there whilst others progress in new content is foolish, and simply won't happen. It's far more likely that they'll simply stop raiding and possibly quit the game.


Sure there is, as Kysen pointed out: modify the difficulty curve of the encounters within a single tier/instance. At the moment, I don't think you can choose which boss you go after in any of the instances (they are all essentially linear progression, or am I missing something?). So if boss #1 is blocking a large portion of groups, that's probably not great design. But the trouble there is answering the question of when 'the hard stuff' can show up. Rolling nerfs I think wouldn't have been the right answer either, since the trouble there becomes deciding when to start them, since that would become the defacto end of a tier (sorta like happened in DS).

I think that blizzard is trying to find a medium between the 'everyone can clear, but some may take longer' of say DS with the rolling nerfs and the 'only 1% of the playerbase will see the last boss of the normal mode of this tier' of some of the earlier expansions. But that means that not everyone will clear everything on normal mode. It seems like blizzard is trying to make up for that by giving folks other stuff to do, so they don't just throw up their hands and quit though some certainly will.

The major trouble so far in MOP that I've seen has been pacing by the players and content availability. The game will let you throw yourself at content until your eyes bleed, and you curse the day Blizzard was formed. 'Do ALL thet things!' has long since become etched in the communities expectations, and so I think some of the burnout is a result of this. I know it certainly was in my guild. And if a group starts throwing themselves at a raid from day 1 and still has trouble several months on, I'm not sure that there isn't an expectation to be managed there as well.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby benebarba » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:19 am

Fenrìr wrote:I personally like how T15 is.

But the problem is the group of people who see themselves as above LFR and can't get past the second boss of ToT. It's a new tier...it's going to be harder and the ilvl requirement is going to be higher. It'd be stupid and, nay I say it, boring as shit if T15 had the same ilvl requirement as ToES or HoF. It has to be harder. While I respect the people who want to raid and see normal mode raids, I think the vast majority of people need to understand that if they haven't even cleared T14, T15 isn't where they should be (and if they are attempting, not complaining about the difficulty).


I think that the argument that T-15's first normal mode boss shouldn't require more than 496 is pretty reasonable (not requiring 470, like say HoF or ToES - I agree that's too low). That would be the gear from clearing normal T-14 and maybe some valor stuff. 480 (I think?) for the LFR seems pretty reasonable as well (cleared T-14 LFR, maybe some valor gear).

I really think that this is just a culture shock to people who got used to the 'go right into current tier' of Cata or never got into (or liked) the progression through tiers of previous expansions. Therefore, for those who've been attempting content and not making it happen for whatever reason I can see some frustration.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:30 am

I don't know if I agree with a 496 ilvl req for the first boss. It needs to be higher. I could see 502 or something. But even then, I feel like the bosses are tuned pretty close to where they should be (save for that damn boring ass bird...he should the first boss).

Even then, Blizzard said that normal mode, while it has an ilvl req, should only be wiping guilds if they can't do the mechanics properly. And that's exactly what people are seeing here with Horridon...mechanics, not gear. Sure, gear would help...but guess where you'll get the gear to kill boss 2 of a new tier....that's right, previous tier.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Flex » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:33 am

Fenrìr wrote:but guess where you'll get the gear to kill boss 2 of a new tier....that's right, previous tier.


The balancing was people stuck at Garalon (that seems to be the basis for everything) should get the first ToT boss down, should have some issues with the second but it should be doable and will have more trouble with the third. After that they shouldn't be able to progress smoothly and would need to go back to T14 raids.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby benebarba » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:36 am

Fenrìr wrote:I don't know if I agree with a 496 ilvl req for the first boss. It needs to be higher. I could see 502 or something. But even then, I feel like the bosses are tuned pretty close to where they should be (save for that damn boring ass bird...he should the first boss).

Even then, Blizzard said that normal mode, while it has an ilvl req, should only be wiping guilds if they can't do the mechanics properly. And that's exactly what people are seeing here with Horridon...mechanics, not gear. Sure, gear would help...but guess where you'll get the gear to kill boss 2 of a new tier....that's right, previous tier.


502 ilvl would basically mean that LFR or heroic modes were part of the progression, or mean that more 500+ ilvl loot had to be available elsewhere. I thought one of the express goals was for LFR to *not* be part of the progression aside from 'catch up'.

I can't actually comment on the balance, I was speaking more generally. But yeah - I agree with the general trend of 'mechanics = win' that was present even in T-14. I actually think that allows for more than just 'make bigger numbers!' type difficulty, which means that groups that may have some trouble just with raw DPS/HPS can still get pretty far into a raid before hitting a wall.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:40 am

But by the same logic of LFR is a catch-up tool...with it dropping 502 ilvl gear with 522 rep vendor, I don't think a 502 ilvl req for the first boss is too far fetched.

Proper planning of VP for the last couple of weeks before 5.2 could have netted most people 2 pieces of 522 gear (neck, ring, bracers or trinket). But that falls on player responsibility and foresight.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby benebarba » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:42 am

Fenrìr wrote:But by the same logic of LFR is a catch-up tool...with it dropping 502 ilvl gear with 522 rep vendor, I don't think a 502 ilvl req for the first boss is too far fetched.

Proper planning of VP for the last couple of weeks before 5.2 could have netted most people 2 pieces of 522 gear (neck, ring, bracers or trinket). But that falls on player responsibility and foresight.


... and using LFR as part of the progression requirements. Actual requirements, not just socially imposed ones, if that was what it was balanced around.


let's say you have ilvl 496 in all your slots from farming the hell out of normal mode T-14. Your whole team has done the same. You all go grab your 522 neck at neutral, so your average ilvl is now, what 497/498? (+26 ilvl in 1 of 12 slots)? So you literally do not have the gear for at least 1/2 weeks (LFR lag of 1 week, so you can't earn rep) to go into the first boss at the intended level.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:44 am

It's the model blizzard is following this expac and people need to realize that.

If people are complaining they can't do a boss because of gear and the boss needs a nerf...especially the second boss...I'm sorry, but you need to step back and do T14 a few more weeks.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Flex » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:45 am

Normal mode raiding should not be balanced around having to do the LFR version of that raid.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Flex » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:46 am

Fenrìr wrote:It's the model blizzard is following this expac and people need to realize that.

If people are complaining they can't do a boss because of gear and the boss needs a nerf...especially the second boss...I'm sorry, but you need to step back and do T14 a few more weeks.


T14 is not LFR.

To make LFR a mandatory part of normal and heroic raiding is asinine.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:47 am

Thing is first boss is a joke to a raid with an average ilevel of 496. It's doable with 485 ilevel, which sets up very misleading expectations for the rest of the instance. If it was actually tuned to be demanding for 496 then post-nerf Horridon wouldn't be such a shock as it is now.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:53 am

LFR is not required...Blizzard has stated that as well; it's a tool that's there for you to use to catch up if you don't want to do T14 anymore. However, if you want to raid end game, IE: T15...then you should complete T14 (not LFR)...that's where you're gonna get the most beneficial gear to get past these walls.
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