What's up with T15?

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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby oldboyz » Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:33 pm

already posted in the "frustation post"

this new tier look horrible from a "casual average" point of view
first boss was downed under an hour while the next one look like a very big step - same feeling as in HoF when we met the stopper Garalon
talked with a friend 7/12 : progression path seems totaly bullshit... which gave me some more demotivation

comapred with Cata tiers... all raids were quite well designed in the difficulty progression and it was fine for us


regarding what beeing written : please... do not consider LFR as a raid option.... LFR is pure garbage.
i know my raid is no more able to run for HM (even if half the roster did it in the past and our "skill" is still better than previous expension) we don't have time to study&improve every detail, we just look for serious fun
so, if we are no more the audience for Normal mode, and asked to go in LFR, it will be consider as a very durty offense.... (hm for the top 1% player, then normal for the next 5%??? ... leaving 90% in the same LFR boat??? com'on)
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Rhiannon » Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:56 pm

What's your raid's average ilevel? If the majority of your dps don't have 496 weapons and average ilevel of 490 you will really struggle to meet the numbers requirements, of which there are many, both explicit (hard enrages) and implicit (killing a particular add quick enough that bad things don't start to snowball). If that is the case you will probably get good returns from continuing to down Jin'Rohk and running t14 content a bit to fill the gaps. If that's not the case, and you farmed tier 14 normal and some heroic for a while, then you should not have any issues with the dps checks in normal modes, so it just comes down to tactics.

Regardless of what anyone says, gear is a huge factor in fight difficulty. The massive leap in ilevel between t14 and t15 highlights this even more, so I'd really recommend trying to get the most out of t14 normal content if you're struggling with the numbers checks of t15 if your dps are running around with t14 lfr weapons and trinkets still.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Sagara » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:09 am

On the other hand, this is week 3 of the patch that's starting today. I'd suggest going with Rhia's idea - clean out T14 as much as possible for upgrages if Horridon doesn't seem to budge.

A good benchmark is if your add tank has to handle three big adds for a significant amount of time, or if you can't clean up the first door's add by the time the second door opens.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Winkle » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:51 am

This thread has quickly devolved into either helping me and my guild through heroics or trying to offer advice for those struggling on Horridion.

Really i didn't write the OP to address either. What i was really trying to gauge was people's opinion on the tier and whether people agreed with me that Blizzard seem to have neglected a large portion of their raiding playerbase by having this huge gap between LFR (in which no guild/prior player coordination) is required and normal modes which seem to offer a challenge for the top 2k guilds let alone the top 20k guilds.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Sagara » Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:14 am

Welp, that's MT - we strive to help!

Back OT, I'm torn on this - I feel like this raid is thougher than what I'm used to. Still, 15k guilds have killed Jin'Rok, and 8k killed Horrindon after two weeks. So, around 8% and 17% progression in the raid. Based on the 40k or so guild that downed Stone Guard, I don't think (no proofs, no guarantee) that progression is that much slower than, say, Firelands or ICC.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Kai » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:31 am

I think normal modes are WAY over the top in MoP. LFR is ok and all, but it's just really, really terrible compared to raiding with a couple of friends. But these normal raids are way overtuned for grabbing just a few random guys that haven't done any raiding and go have some fun.

I'm not really sure what Blizzard wants to accomplish with the current difficulty. Personally with the LFR stuff I expected something like this as target audience:

LFR: Non-organized raiding. Meaning you don't want to commit to any sort of schedule at all and just fool around. Players that focus on PvP but want 1-2 pve drops. Alts.

Normal: Somewhat organized raiding. Guilds that have 1-2 fixed days per week should clear this fairly easily, at least the first 75% of the instance. Content should be doable by decent pick up groups without having a proper setup or a good communication/organisation.

heroic: Organized raiding, 5+ hours per week. People care about knowing details of their class/role, prepare for raids and so on. Ideally this should be tuned (or gradually nerfed, see Dragon Soul) so that guilds that raid two evenings per week can be done with heroics before the next patch hits.

That's roughly how it worked out in DS and that's kinda how I expected it to move forward. But in reality the normal difficult got pushed into the area of what I perceived as 'heroic' difficulty this time. Trade chat pick up groups geared with the previous tier normal loot and this tier LFR have pretty much no chance to get anything done at all (and no, a group filled with alts of people that raid very seriously on their mains is not a PUG in this meaning of the word).

Just feels to me like making non-LFR raiding more accessible would be much better. Can still let the casual groups/pugs wipe on the last 2-3 bosses if you want. But have brickwalls as the 3rd and 5th boss is unnecessairy. And I don't see a non-organized group killing Durumu any time soon.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:19 am

I dunno, it doesn't feel to me all that much harder than previous tiers. Dragon Soul was too easy, but T14 and T15 don't seem far off what, say, Ulduar and T11 were like. There are a few bosses with difficult mechanics providing more of a block than usual, but outside those...

(Jin'rokh is the easiest thing since Morchok, but he's a bit of an outlier.)
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:24 am

"Grabbing a few random guys who have never raided before" and going to kill bosses is what LFR is for, not normal content.

And ditto on Dragon Soul being far, far too easy.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby lythac » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:37 am

Nikachelle wrote:"Grabbing a few random guys who have never raided before" and going to kill bosses is what LFR is for, not normal content.


Or previous nerfed tiers, when overgeared from current LFR and valor gear.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby benebarba » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:00 am

Kai wrote:I think normal modes are WAY over the top in MoP. LFR is ok and all, but it's just really, really terrible compared to raiding with a couple of friends. But these normal raids are way overtuned for grabbing just a few random guys that haven't done any raiding and go have some fun.


I believe that what we are currently seeing is precisely the design intent based on the blues' comments. It seems more that you are one of the not-insignificant group of players that fall in between the LFR/Normal 'groups': you want a challenge, but don't have 10/25 folks to do it regularly and so the normal modes are a bit out of reach, and LFR is far too easy (and is not a closed group). Challenge modes don't really help since they don't really help gear progression (other ways to get VP and non-mog loot) and may not be of interest. At least now (T15) you can do the T14 normals, which still retain the mechanical challenges, even if gear and nerfs have made some of the requirements a bit more lax. You may end up with some upgrades too, depending on how lucky you've been in LFR.

If it weren't for finding a hodge-podge mixed raid group made up of players from guilds that fizzled last tier, I'd probably be in the same boat.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby samsara » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:30 am

hm, i think more the problem is "what you expecting is not what you get" , quite a lot of people tend to think that they have to clear everything in the first week. We did it on normal, but even as a guild wich has 1/12 heroic our goal is "only" to get one boss per week which gives us a timeframe of 12 weeks (3 month) to come close to the endboss. Sure , i love it following the progress race but i'm not expecting my guild somewhere near those guys. A friend of mine which plays very casual in a small 10 man raiding guild is at 4/12 (normal) at the moment and thats fine, if you think that "Normal"-Mode is exactly aimed at people who don't have time for 3-4 raids / week and think of probably 3-4 month until next tier those guilds will be definitly at 12/12 normal and maybe a 1-4 heroic when 5.4 is released, its perfect.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Kai » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:38 am

benebarba wrote:
Kai wrote:I think normal modes are WAY over the top in MoP. LFR is ok and all, but it's just really, really terrible compared to raiding with a couple of friends. But these normal raids are way overtuned for grabbing just a few random guys that haven't done any raiding and go have some fun.


I believe that what we are currently seeing is precisely the design intent based on the blues' comments. It seems more that you are one of the not-insignificant group of players that fall in between the LFR/Normal 'groups': you want a challenge, but don't have 10/25 folks to do it regularly and so the normal modes are a bit out of reach, and LFR is far too easy (and is not a closed group). Challenge modes don't really help since they don't really help gear progression (other ways to get VP and non-mog loot) and may not be of interest. At least now (T15) you can do the T14 normals, which still retain the mechanical challenges, even if gear and nerfs have made some of the requirements a bit more lax. You may end up with some upgrades too, depending on how lucky you've been in LFR.

If it weren't for finding a hodge-podge mixed raid group made up of players from guilds that fizzled last tier, I'd probably be in the same boat.


nah, I'm in a reasonable raid, it's more from the pov of my alts and some casuals that I helped with my alts here and there. My guild used to be a 25 men fairly hardcore guild but eventually went 10 men as no one wanted to do the work-part that a 25 men guild brings with it. But from those times we still have a pretty big roster of casuals/ex-raiders that just log on here and there. We used to have an alt raid going with that group. Lots of fluctuation, sometimes better geared people, sometimes worse. But in MoP I tried that once but doing mogu-vaults with people barely in 463 stuff ...

Getting that done would have meant quite a bit of wiping. One progression raid on my main is enough for my taste. And if people that don't play much currently but used to be in a top 50 guild have problems doing normal mode (sure, undergeared, don't know the fights, but in reality everything is similar to something in the past), stuff feels overtuned for me.

They made a big thing out of making everything more accessible after WotlK. Exaclty for the reason you stated above, only the other direction:
Ulduar was NOT accessible enough. They were very unhappy with how few people actually got to see those raids. You don't even want to mention stuff like original Naxx and Sunwell. A super tiny fraction of the player base actually saw those before the next expansion hit.

But now it seems LFR is the only part of raiding widely available. Maybe that's enough, but personally I loathe LFR. I can't stand the attitude of lots of people, it drives me mad if some retards are just afk the whole run and expecting to get carried.
I just want to be able to grab a group of reasonable geared friends that don't care nearly as much for raiding as I do and go and kill some 10 men bosses. But that's apparently not really intended atm, at least not in the current tier, that only works with 5.1 content.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby Kai » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:48 am

samsara wrote:hm, i think more the problem is "what you expecting is not what you get" , quite a lot of people tend to think that they have to clear everything in the first week. We did it on normal, but even as a guild wich has 1/12 heroic our goal is "only" to get one boss per week which gives us a timeframe of 12 weeks (3 month) to come close to the endboss. Sure , i love it following the progress race but i'm not expecting my guild somewhere near those guys. A friend of mine which plays very casual in a small 10 man raiding guild is at 4/12 (normal) at the moment and thats fine, if you think that "Normal"-Mode is exactly aimed at people who don't have time for 3-4 raids / week and think of probably 3-4 month until next tier those guilds will be definitly at 12/12 normal and maybe a 1-4 heroic when 5.4 is released, its perfect.


Yeah, and my point is that I don't understand that stance. Raiding should be a big part of PvE. Surely they do not expect people to run the same 5 mens for a whole expansion. So what do they want people to do in the game? Dailies and nothing else? That's ridiculous. They put so much effort into the raiding instances yet the only way to experience them without investing a non-trivial amount of time is stupid LFR where every second sentence is some 14y old talking about someone's mum and every 3rd word is yolo or l2p? Is that really the experience they want to give casual players?

My whole point is that the attitude of " if you think that "Normal"-Mode is exactly aimed at people who don't have time for 3-4 raids / week and think of probably 3-4 month until next tier those guilds will be definitly at 12/12 normal " is silly. It shouldn't be expected to be in a somewhat organized raiding environment just to be able to clear normal modes.
That's TERRIBLE game design imo. With this content design a way too big fraction of the player base can't do current content raids outside of LFR. I really don't understand the reasoning behind that.

And again, it's not a 'this is too complicated' whine. I have completed every raid/heroic raid before the next content patch/expansion since the game was released. But I just don't understand why casuals log in after not playing for some weeks/months as there's a content patch with a new raid, then ask me if I think they can run a semi-pug to see some of the new instance and I tell them that it just isn't reasonably doable without quite a bit of effort..
I just can't get behind that design, dunno.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby benebarba » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:08 am

Kai wrote:My whole point is that the attitude of " if you think that "Normal"-Mode is exactly aimed at people who don't have time for 3-4 raids / week and think of probably 3-4 month until next tier those guilds will be definitly at 12/12 normal " is silly. It shouldn't be expected to be in a somewhat organized raiding environment just to be able to clear normal modes.
That's TERRIBLE game design imo. With this content design a way too big fraction of the player base can't do current content raids outside of LFR. I really don't understand the reasoning behind that.


Well, the less-than 'somewhat organized' (not sure if this means the same thing to me as you) raiding environment is a bit difficult to design around without trivializing it for organized groups.

If you assume that 1) there isn't someone there to give directions clearly and coherently (i.e. The Raid Leader in an organized raid group) and 2) that communications and coordination between members may be slow or nonexistant (i.e. no instant voice chat calls or raid warnings to 'command the troops', folks not responding instantly to changes, not coordinating cooldowns, etc.), you are left with very few options to make content challenging for a group. Because really, what you have is a pile of people in the same room, not a coherent group functioning together toward an end.

If you look at making 'normal' content accessible from the outset for 'less than organized' groups, I feel you are limited mechanically. Tank-n-spank DPS fests are possible, simple tank-swaps or tank-roles (add/boss, etc) are possible, clear phase fights (where coordination up front is possible). Look at the Baradin Hold or VoA bosses. Would you *really* like a tier full of those?

Really, it kind of makes sense that LFR has eliminated some mechanics from fights, because that's where the complexity and group challenge really comes from. Requiring people put out higher numbers isn't really complexity IMO (and gear 'nerfing' and actual numbers nerfs help that - something they are using this time to keep older non-LFR tiers somewhat relevant). Do I think they could improve on the current model? Yep. But doing it by adding in another raid difficulty, or reducing the raid difficulty from the outset probably isn't the best way to go overall.
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Re: What's up with T15?

Postby halabar » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:18 am

benebarba wrote: Do I think they could improve on the current model? Yep. But doing it by adding in another raid difficulty, or reducing the raid difficulty from the outset probably isn't the best way to go overall.


Realistically, there isn't another way to add that next level of granularity. And if you did, it would be even harder to organize groups into the correct "levels". As others have said, with the previous tier still viable, that does provide that other option for more casual and less skilled groups (like my current team).

Heck, ToT LFR is no picnic either for people going in there blind.

The only real change I would make is probably make the first real normal cockblock at fight 4 or so, instead of fight #2.

The other thing that is forgotten here is that LFR does allow everyone to see the content, so Blizz can and has up the difficulty level, rather that nerf the content more so their design efforts aren't totally wasted.
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