patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:23 am

Nikachelle wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:I've queued and done a few 5s when I was already VP capped just for, you know, fun.

Wait... people actually do that?

I do.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:26 am

Same. Just to torch through scholo in 5 pulls total :-p
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby benebarba » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:06 pm

Lieris wrote:
halabar wrote:5-mans are fine for leveling, but at 90, the repetition is worse than the dentist, especially when there are no rewards.


That's because Blizzard completely marginalised them by only making 6 new ones to cover an entire expansion, removed reputation gains from them, made JP useless and didn't put any decent gear in them so of course folk are sick of them and have no reason to do them.

Like I have said before, the tanking-healing-DPSing dynamic is what makes WoW great. By sidelining 5 man content in favour of crap content like scenarios and daily hubs they distance themselves further from the social and cooperative gameplay that I loved so much.


While I agree with your main point of why 5-mans aren't terribly popular... I do have to wonder about this tanking-healing-DPSing dynamic you mention.

Have you been in the same 5-mans I have? Since they had to step back from the cata launch 5-mans difficulty the tank-DPS relationship is mainly static. DPS-DPS is nonexistant assuming some combination of the players results in sufficient DPS to beat the encounter, Heal-tank is somewhat dynamic, though I find can make them even more bored with good play thanks to AM. Heal-DPS relation is nearly non-existant aside from the occasional party-damage fight. A real integrated dynamic doesn't really show up until LFR, and in some cases not even until normal or heroic mode raiding (I assume, I don't do HMs), IMO.

To be honest, I've found more synergy in good scenario groups with hybrid classes, where folks are doing all sorts of stuff to get the job done (bad ones just hope their deeps is better than the mobs and push facefirst through stuff then ragequit when it doesn't work). Besides, scenarios in my mind are far more a general concept than the ones they've done. I recall reading that they can technically do any size scenario, but that they stuck to small ones to try it out first.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Newsom » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:57 pm

Yeah, I have to say I'm starting to enjoy scenarios a whole lot more than 5 mans.

I still wish there was really difficult 5 man content though - I'm not a huge fan of the time based component of Challenge Modes. I'd love to see a long 5 man with raid like difficulty (bring back Karazhan!?) where you aren't guaranteed to clear the place even in an organized group.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Koatanga » Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:17 pm

I think some 5-main raid content would be fun, but not if it kills 10-man raiding like 10-man killed 25-man raids. I think it would be great to scale up some of the old raid content for 5-man groups, tweaking some of the mechanics as required to handle 1 tank and 1 healer. Kara, for example, is a fine idea. It was a fun place when relevant, but people just steamroll through it for mog runs if they go in at all.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Newsom » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:47 pm

No, it'd have to be something completely separate (as in a unique instance that is only available as a 5 man). I'd imagine drops wouls be inferior to normal mode raiding too, maybe on the same level as LFR.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Lieris » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:22 am

benebarba wrote:
Lieris wrote:
halabar wrote:5-mans are fine for leveling, but at 90, the repetition is worse than the dentist, especially when there are no rewards.


That's because Blizzard completely marginalised them by only making 6 new ones to cover an entire expansion, removed reputation gains from them, made JP useless and didn't put any decent gear in them so of course folk are sick of them and have no reason to do them.

Like I have said before, the tanking-healing-DPSing dynamic is what makes WoW great. By sidelining 5 man content in favour of crap content like scenarios and daily hubs they distance themselves further from the social and cooperative gameplay that I loved so much.


While I agree with your main point of why 5-mans aren't terribly popular... I do have to wonder about this tanking-healing-DPSing dynamic you mention.

Have you been in the same 5-mans I have? Since they had to step back from the cata launch 5-mans difficulty the tank-DPS relationship is mainly static. DPS-DPS is nonexistant assuming some combination of the players results in sufficient DPS to beat the encounter, Heal-tank is somewhat dynamic, though I find can make them even more bored with good play thanks to AM. Heal-DPS relation is nearly non-existant aside from the occasional party-damage fight. A real integrated dynamic doesn't really show up until LFR, and in some cases not even until normal or heroic mode raiding (I assume, I don't do HMs), IMO.


I sadly agree but that's down to Blizzard getting people used to mindless AOE zergs in WotLK so when they stepped things up a bit at Cata launch all the whiners came out in full force so they capitulated. TBC dungeons taught me how to play my class and how to play with others and for a brief time, Cata had that same dynamic I enjoyed so much. I bang on about it a lot but sorting out LOS pulls, being careful not to pull too many packs, interrupts, marking CC, having a hunter kite away a heavy hitting mob, marking patrols... I miss that.

These days every class and spec has a huge toolkit that dwarves what they had in TBC, yet none of it is used in dungeons. There is the potential to design really interesting dungeons but I guess LFD and the "gogogo" mentality hamstrings them. As someone who thinks that dungeons should be more than just a stepping stone for raiding and that when done right can be the most enjoyable content in the game, I think that's tragic.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Lieris » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:35 am

Newsom wrote:No, it'd have to be something completely separate (as in a unique instance that is only available as a 5 man). I'd imagine drops wouls be inferior to normal mode raiding too, maybe on the same level as LFR.


If they could do 5 man content that is as hard as raid content (several hours to learn, unforgiving, consumables etc.), I wouldn't have a problem with normal mode raid quality items dropping. Maybe even have dungeon sets too with their own unique set bonuses and models.

Something for people who don't want to raid but enjoy small group content and want a way to improve their character that doesn't involve grinding tedious dailies. It would also give raiders something to do on off-nights and give normal mode raiders an extra source of items to give them a leg up that doesn't involve welfare epics.

Just an idea..
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:43 am

Lieris wrote:
Newsom wrote:No, it'd have to be something completely separate (as in a unique instance that is only available as a 5 man). I'd imagine drops wouls be inferior to normal mode raiding too, maybe on the same level as LFR.


If they could do 5 man content that is as hard as raid content (several hours to learn, unforgiving, consumables etc.),

Reminds me of a four hour run on Murmur back in BC. Oh god the memories.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fenrìr » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:53 am

Nikachelle wrote:
Lieris wrote:
Newsom wrote:No, it'd have to be something completely separate (as in a unique instance that is only available as a 5 man). I'd imagine drops wouls be inferior to normal mode raiding too, maybe on the same level as LFR.


If they could do 5 man content that is as hard as raid content (several hours to learn, unforgiving, consumables etc.),

Reminds me of a four hour run on Murmur back in BC. Oh god the memories.



lol, I was thinking Shattered Halls.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Lieris » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:57 am

Nikachelle wrote:Reminds me of a four hour run on Murmur back in BC. Oh god the memories.


Shadow Labs was brutal but oh so good looking back. :) You've got to love all the stealthed rogues crawling around, trying to pick the right moment to show the clothies the true meaning of pain and the "Time for fun!" ogre.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:00 am

<3
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby benebarba » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:23 am

Newsom wrote:Yeah, I have to say I'm starting to enjoy scenarios a whole lot more than 5 mans.

I still wish there was really difficult 5 man content though - I'm not a huge fan of the time based component of Challenge Modes. I'd love to see a long 5 man with raid like difficulty (bring back Karazhan!?) where you aren't guaranteed to clear the place even in an organized group.


I think they came close with the trollroics and the cata release 5-mans like Grim Batol and HoO. But I think the problem was those were tossed in the same pool as the other 5-mans progression-wise. If indeed there is a sizeable chunk of the community who wants small, but difficult and rewarding group content that isn't just about going fast, perhaps content somewhere between those older heroics (back when heroics weren't just 'level cap dungeons') and scenarios/LFR is useful.

My thought is something where, like challenge modes, you aren't expected to just be able to queue up and make it happen with a random group of people during your lunch break. You'd zone in like a traditional raid, or perhaps queue if the scenario mechanism is used, with a premade (at least at first). Encounters could basically be like some of the scenarios/dungeon encounters combined with the T-14 LFR encounters where there are tasks that needed to be completed by coordinating the group, specific mechanics which need to be dealt with, etc. You could even have an extended lockout like a raid - so that the idea wasn't that you had to finish it *right now*, and you could make the gear drop better than other small-group content as a result (since it couldn't be farmed ad nauseum in the first week).

of course, I think the answer to 'why don't you do that' is 'because we have LFR/normal modes and challenge modes', assuming they haven't gotten a great deal of feedback asking for non-speed-based challenge mode-like content or that the devs just think it's crazy talk.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:35 am

When it comes to adding non-raid content with decent (raid-equivalent) rewards, Blizzard have a bit of a problem on their hands, because players have a tendency to act like anything that can get them an advantage in their favoured part of the game is required. (It's easy to understand the perspective: if you do not do x to get item y, but other players do, you're at a disadvantage and/or could be considered to be holding your group back by not taking every advantage you can get.)

So you revive challenging 5-man dungeons that take an hour or more to complete and provide raid level rewards... and people complain that they're now having to spend hours of their time completing these 5-mans to keep up.

So how do you make challenging and fun content, that players want to do, without making it feel obligatory and/or a big time drain?

On one level the move away from organised group content makes sense, as the easier stuff you just queue for doesn't hit that problem of time vs. incentive, but on another level, the game needs that small group content to teach players how to work in an organised group, and to give tanks/healers a purpose when not raiding.

It would be great if Blizzard could implement this content and just let players choose to run it for fun, but then people stop participating if there's no good reward for it.

I guess if they want to bring back this stuff, it would need to have limits on its rewards. Like a weekly lockout instead of a daily one.

I think there's a gap emerging in the current game design which could be filled by small-group raids, old-style harder 5-mans but with a weekly lockout. But there's a helluva lot of other content that Blizz already has to spend its time working on too.

I hope this rambling makes some sort of sense.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby benebarba » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:28 am

KysenMurrin wrote:I hope this rambling makes some sort of sense.


I think it does. And I agree, though I think there is some overestimation in how much Blizz really listens to the 'but blizzz, I *have* do this nao, thanks for ruining my life' stuff when they design content. I do believe they think about it, but I think other stuff trumps the complaints of that portion of the userbase (as demonstrated by actions). Either way, I think that the key would be a weekly lockout if they introduced this sort of content since it would be no different than separate lockouts for 10/25 man raids - but would also be available to 10 man groups. *And* I think it would help with pacing, and lighten up the pressure to down everything now, so you can go do it again tomorrow.

It would also be a step towards having a small-group progression path, but there you run the difficulty of avoiding the issues that raid size changes brought along with them. This I think is the bigger problem. I doubt lore/content completion alone would be sufficient to fight that, though it would certainly help. If there was a limited selection of slots that could be filled, or if the gear was slightly less than that in say LFR (or normal - depending on the difficulty), or both, then you may be able to avoid it driving downsizing.

On the other hand, it could provide those groups like my guild (that had done 10 mans) who lost a whole pile of people something to do if they can't get numbers up.

all that said- I have my doubts it would happen. The team is spread pretty thin already. I somehow don't think that the small-group progression path is a direction they plan on pursuing. I think 'fast fun' for small groups, with LFR for getting a look at the raid lore/content and 'progressive challenge' for organized large groups is what they've settled on for at least this expansion. I don't think it helps that they'd also have to fight the group 'sizism' that seems exist.

I actually expect non-objective driven PVP content to come first.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Promdates » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:39 am

Lieris wrote:If they could do 5 man content that is as hard as raid content (several hours to learn, unforgiving, consumables etc.),


It's called Challenge Modes. 5 man content that takes effort, skill, and dedication to complete. Your average wow player won't be able to get all golds in it.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby benebarba » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:55 am

Promdates wrote:
Lieris wrote:If they could do 5 man content that is as hard as raid content (several hours to learn, unforgiving, consumables etc.),


It's called Challenge Modes. 5 man content that takes effort, skill, and dedication to complete. Your average wow player won't be able to get all golds in it.


last I checked raids weren't challenging because your loots depended on how fast you did it (outside of a couple encounters or achievements)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:30 am

The idea of speed running totally put me off Challenge modes.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Lieris » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:33 am

Promdates wrote:
Lieris wrote:If they could do 5 man content that is as hard as raid content (several hours to learn, unforgiving, consumables etc.),


It's called Challenge Modes. 5 man content that takes effort, skill, and dedication to complete. Your average wow player won't be able to get all golds in it.


Unfortunately barely anybody is interested in doing them and the few that are stopped doing them as soon as they got golds. They aren't a substitute for a proper 5 man progression path.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:37 am

benebarba wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:I hope this rambling makes some sort of sense.


I think it does. And I agree, though I think there is some overestimation in how much Blizz really listens to the 'but blizzz, I *have* do this nao, thanks for ruining my life' stuff when they design content.


That's the reason Shado-Pan and August Celestials are gated behind Golden Lotus. That just replaced one form of bitching with another form of bitching though.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Teranoid » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:46 am

Lieris wrote:
Promdates wrote:
Lieris wrote:If they could do 5 man content that is as hard as raid content (several hours to learn, unforgiving, consumables etc.),


It's called Challenge Modes. 5 man content that takes effort, skill, and dedication to complete. Your average wow player won't be able to get all golds in it.


Unfortunately barely anybody is interested in doing them and the few that are stopped doing them as soon as they got golds. They aren't a substitute for a proper 5 man progression path.


I don't even understand how someone considers them even a progression path. They're glorified time trials with rewards that do nothing to actually advance your character. There's not even going to be any expansion of them in Mists due to the whole "we can't be bothered to make more dungeons we're too busy coming up with 500 thousand more yawn inducing daily quests because the overwhelming feedback has been 100% positive"
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:50 am

They were harder content for the sake of harder content. It is a giant troll on Blizzard's end to people saying they wanted challenging 5 man content and going "Here it is. You only get cosmetic rewards from it. That should be enough for people who want difficult for difficult's sake right?"
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:55 am

Flex wrote:They were harder content for the sake of harder content. It is a giant troll on Blizzard's end to people saying they wanted challenging 5 man content and going "Here it is. You only get cosmetic rewards from it. That should be enough for people who want difficult for difficult's sake right?"


And then make those cosmetic rewards meh at best and ugly in most cases for good measure.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:56 am

halabar wrote:
Flex wrote:They were harder content for the sake of harder content. It is a giant troll on Blizzard's end to people saying they wanted challenging 5 man content and going "Here it is. You only get cosmetic rewards from it. That should be enough for people who want difficult for difficult's sake right?"


And then make those cosmetic rewards meh at best and ugly in most cases for good measure.


That's 1/3rd of the rewards.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby benebarba » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:16 pm

Flex wrote:They were harder content for the sake of harder content. It is a giant troll on Blizzard's end to people saying they wanted challenging 5 man content and going "Here it is. You only get cosmetic rewards from it. That should be enough for people who want difficult for difficult's sake right?"


This is the best way I've ever heard it put.
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