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patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Koatanga » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:23 pm

halabar wrote:
Koatanga wrote:
Worldie wrote:With 476 gear being very cheap, it doesnt take much to get 460 ilvl. At least I could get it easily in 1 day on my last 3 alts.

460 is a piece of cake. 470 is more difficult - you pretty much need the crafted items plus heroic gear in every slot. My druid had crafted hands and chest, 476 inscription weapon, and darkmoon trink and it still took a bit of grinding to hit 470. I could have bought some BoEs to make it easier, but 476 in a couple of slots really doesn't do much for the average when you're trying to hit 470. You're better off running heroics for the drops and JPs for upgrading your blues.


Except no more JP upgrades... :wink:

Adding the new 522 valor neck will make a bigger difference. But if you can't get in LFR yet, that's still painful heroics to get the valor to start with.

True about the lack of upgrades. That would make 470 a real pain. Not only is that two weeks of grinding valor because of the weekly cap, but it's also 250 daily quests' worth of valor to buy the piece. That's a mountain of work for an alt. I should have leveled my shaman, but I was prepping my drood for Mu-shu-pork-palace with some cross-server friends. Damn.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:38 pm

They don't "have to" farm LFR any more than casuals "have to" to the rep grinds and dailies. People have been telling me all along how if I didn't like dailies and rep grinds I don't have to do them. Well, if people want their kill to be fresh, they don't have to do LFR and burn themselves out on it, do they?


That would be why I used the word "incentivized" and not "have to".
Blizzard isn't so stupid that they can't understand that players will do actions that their system incentivizes, so they delay the incentive.

The designer of a system cannot design a system that promotes doing X and then sit back and expect people to be too stupid to calculate that. As such, since Blizzard wants system X is place, but doesn't want to incentivize it as hard on a temporary basis, their chosen option is .... gating. For the intended audience for system X, the new content is somewhat accessible early and then takes longer to open fully (as they said, getting the first wings quick and then a longer delay to the final one with Lei Shen).

Since this ties in nicely with their gating plan as well as prolonging the patch, for Blizzard, it's a win-win. As far as they're concerned, it's a win for Raiders and since the target audience for LFR is getting the new content and then having it unlocked, it's "win" for them in that they're getting their new content (the only complaint being from rabid people on forums about "LFR is treated like second-class citizens". THESE are the people being referred to by others when it comes to entitlement).

This can't possibly work the other way however (all you're doing in reverse is creating the ICC/ToC era system which was universally terrible).

The fact that doing LFR is practically mandatory if you want to progress is irrelevant, because the rep/badge gear is practically mandatory if casuals want to progress. In both cases people are incentivised to do things they don't want to do, so I reckon the same advice applies to both cases.


One bad system doesn't really mean that Blizzard should hold thier hands in the air and do nothing. At the very least, this is something that they've finally acknowledged as an issue that existed since Dragon Soul LFR (the first version of LFR). They're adamant to pretend that dailies are optional, or that the inability to cap Valor while doing raiding for the week is bad design. That'll probably take another year or so for them to clue in.

This is their first version (and overall, it's not a great solution) of their solution at actually attempting to see the issue. The more important thing is that they understand that the issue exists.

True about the lack of upgrades. That would make 470 a real pain. Not only is that two weeks of grinding valor because of the weekly cap, but it's also 250 daily quests' worth of valor to buy the piece. That's a mountain of work for an alt. I should have leveled my shaman, but I was prepping my drood for Mu-shu-pork-palace with some cross-server friends. Damn.


If you're not at 470, your alt will presumably still be doing the old LFR for the upgrades you don't have yet, not doing 250 dailies, so phrasing it as "250 daily quests' worth of valor" is .... a bit misleading.
Assuming you're not going into this patch with either exactly the amount required to buy the piece, or with capped Valor anyway.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Koatanga » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:37 pm

That's true - I would still be getting valor from the 2 460 raids and from the instances I'd chain-run to get whatever blues I could. Still, without the JP upgrades, it will be more difficult to reach 470 unless the drop rate in 460 LFRs has been significantly improved.

My druid had 3 LFR drops that did not coincide with slots where she already had epics, which I would consider to be a lucky week for the 460 raids. Topped up with crafted chest and hands, inscription staff, DMC trink, and Sha boots she still needed upgrades to reach 470. Without upgrades, she'd pretty much be stuffed unless I dropped 30k on one of the high level BoE pieces or was content to let her sit and rot for another week's chances to get LFR pieces.

I wouldn't mind that as much if LFR loot wasn't so damn stupid. If you have a better piece in a 25-man raid, you don't roll on inferior items that drop. Why do they award inferior and duplicate items when others in the LFR could use those items? Seems to me that if they fixed that one aspect of LFR loot rewarding, people who need gear would see more of it. Having run LFR on my main since it was available in order to get an epic weapon, it really annoys me when DPS warriors say "great, the stupid 1-hand weapon again" while I get (if lucky) my 5th head token.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:49 pm

I wouldn't mind that as much if LFR loot wasn't so damn stupid. If you have a better piece in a 25-man raid, you don't roll on inferior items that drop. Why do they award inferior and duplicate items when others in the LFR could use those items?


Cause your roll doesn't affect theirs. Theoretically, all 25 people could get their items off the boss at the same time.
If they said you can't get duplicate items, you'd have more complex logic for actual duplicate-necessary items (like 1h's but also for specs that use the same loot configured differently for different specs, not to mention multiple tokens actually allow for offspec gearing anyway).

The catchup isn't really invalidated if you "rot for a week" though. And if anything, the initial week means you're not compelled as hard on that front (getting Valor next week early on means you can happily do week 1 LFR with that 522 Neck just fine).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Koatanga » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:40 pm

Darielle wrote:The catchup isn't really invalidated if you "rot for a week" though. And if anything, the initial week means you're not compelled as hard on that front (getting Valor next week early on means you can happily do week 1 LFR with that 522 Neck just fine).

Well, it does put you a week behind the 470 instance drops that you need to catch up to current gear levels. Yeah, it's only a week, I know.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby bldavis » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:57 pm

as proof there is no NO DUPLICATE ITEMS i have 3..yes THREE 1hd swords from sha of fear on my dk...and i got 2 while in there as blood!
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Kelerei » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:11 am

djlar wrote:I predict yet another "legendary gem" for next patch, what about necks? I'm surprise no neck piece has a gem slot, aren't necklaces ideal for a huge gem hanging in?


I didn't see this being answered (apologies if I missed it!), but there are necks with sockets in T15. ;)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:57 am

I personally don't mind the dailies, I think the repping is quick enough (even back when I was still raiding and prepping for raiding).

My issue with the long LFR delay is the dual delay;
1) LFR is the stated catch-up mechanism - delaying this delays catchup, as T14 lfr gear is just not good enought o go into a T15 guild thats already going, you are a drag on the roster in that case.
2) Raid Rep is required for the new VP gear - delaying LFR to the tune of more than a month means more burnout on the first parts and less rep gained for someone trying to catch-up via LFR gains of rep to buy the new gear to advance beyond LFR only gear.

Granted, being able to buy Blood Spirits for VP means you can get some (morE) 496 gear for VP, which definately helps, but this isn't the stated catch-up venus, so while it works, its still stupid to delay LFR and say that LFR is the catch-up mechanism.
If VP was teh catchup mechanism, they should focus on that, and go back to vp cost converts to JP cost (well with the scarcity of JP, its okay it stays VP) so you can catch up to current penultimate tier by running dungeons essentially.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby djlar » Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:25 am

Kelerei wrote:
djlar wrote:I predict yet another "legendary gem" for next patch, what about necks? I'm surprise no neck piece has a gem slot, aren't necklaces ideal for a huge gem hanging in?


I didn't see this being answered (apologies if I missed it!), but there are necks with sockets in T15. ;)


Yeah I haven't seen a neck piece with a slot in ages, that includes the new i522 neck piece that's bought with VPs, I guess I didn't look at the raid's loot table enough.. but it's viable they could intruduce a slot for necks next major patch
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Jabari » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:07 am

Couple of dumb questions and things:

- Anyone else find the "run over Occupied Soil with the plow" bugged? It popped the virmen out, but after I killed it the plot stayed "Occupied Soil" and I couldn't do a thing to it. (Couldn't click, plow, or plant it). Logging out and back in fixed it at least.

- Is there any way to undo the "buy the farm" bit? I rather liked the "plant 1 crop for Yoon's daily, then dig it up and put something real there" bit - a free lesser charm and 10 gold! (Unless of course you can get more plots later or something, but all I could see was "plant 8 crops for rep" stuff).

- How exactly do you get Elder Charms now?

- Tamed Degu - took about 6 tries. That's a LONG graveyard run to get back to him! *laugh*
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:47 am

The irony is that this patch has actually made it WORSE for alts in some regards, unless your alts are capable of doing the new Island dailies. Why? Your main probably has 3-6 Elder Charms from random drops on the island, or from the new caches and whatnot. Your main probably also doesn't need them much to roll for loot in LFR or whatever. Your alts however, that could use them, likely aren't getting them from the older Panda content. Way to go Blizz?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby econ21 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:50 am

Jabari wrote:- How exactly do you get Elder Charms now?


I think you get them as random drops in some loot, maybe LFR gold bags and the single player treasure scenario. I don't understand why they took out the quest to convert lesser into elder, though, especially when 5.2 LFR is gated and on a rather slow release.

Koatanga wrote:True about the lack of upgrades. That would make 470 a real pain.


People are surely going to pvp. Even with the new honour gearing being "only" 476 rather than 483, it will be extremely attractive for latecomers to pve.

And by pvp, I mean run Tol Barad for 500-800 honour (and Wintergrasp for up to 500 honour), if your faction predominates on your server.
Last edited by econ21 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Jabari » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:03 am

halabar wrote:Your main probably also doesn't need them much to roll for loot in LFR or whatever.


Dunno about this. My hunter (2nd main, ilvl 490) in the last 3 days got both the 489 Fetters of Death from Garajal and 496 tier legs from Sha with coin rolls. *shrug*

Obviously don't need them for LFR runs, but you can still use them for normal runs.

econ21 wrote:... the single player treasure scenario.


:?:


Also, I feel for you alliance types. Got (what used to be) the alliance-only Scenario last night. It sucks. Dagger in the Dark is way better! :lol:
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Teranoid » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:09 am

halabar wrote:The irony is that this patch has actually made it WORSE for alts in some regards, unless your alts are capable of doing the new Island dailies. Why? Your main probably has 3-6 Elder Charms from random drops on the island, or from the new caches and whatnot. Your main probably also doesn't need them much to roll for loot in LFR or whatever. Your alts however, that could use them, likely aren't getting them from the older Panda content. Way to go Blizz?


Tried to take my priest into LFRs last night after picking up a few more upgrades to put her over the last threshold. Wiped on the first trash pack in HoF barely scraping by every boss and nothing to show for it other than more gold (increased gear drops my ass.). This was of course after the crippling lag made it take me almost an hour and a half to do 11 dailies.

Yep alts are officially benched for the rest of this expansion. Not even going to waste my time anymore.

And why they didn't make it so the coins you get from the isle dailies go towards mogu and kept the old ones they way they were makes absolutely no sense.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby benebarba » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:21 am

Teranoid wrote:And why they didn't make it so the coins you get from the isle dailies go towards mogu and kept the old ones they way they were makes absolutely no sense.


I was actually shocked when I saw that the old turn-in quest was gone. I guess I can just stockpile the lesser charms on my still-gearing alt and use them like mad later in ToT LFR.

I wonder if this will be changed - it doesn't really make much sense. It seems likely that the net result for a player who'd been using the elder charms is that this kind of cancels out the increased drop rates, and giving them a head start on getting gobs of the new mogu ones.
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