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patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Lieris » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:45 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Lieris wrote:
halabar wrote:I don't think that was the point we were making.. the issue is still the work involved in catchup, assuming you don't have a already well geared group to drag you through. As I mentioned before, my raid team is going to need to do a lot before they are ready for N T15.


Nooska brought up recruitment and making the step up to proper raiding so I addressed that specifically. I appreciate LFR would help your guild but isn't there a bunch of new rep and badge gear too? I can't pretend to know what it's like for your guild but overall I think LFR is harmful enough for normal guilds in terms of player pool for recruitment, having it super early like with Dragon Soul (*spit*) would hurt guilds like yours even more.


I can't speak for Nooska, but the rep and badge gear is for the people who enjoy the endless dailies it takes to get it. I don't have the time during the weekdays because I work and have a family. If I could grind the rep on weekends I would be a lot further along gear-wise than I am, but I can only run the allotted number of dailies each weekend day and I really don't enjoy the boring repetition that they represent.

I would much rather have some variety in my WoW experience by playing an alt than to do the same things over and over every day like a carnival chicken plucking corn off a keyboard.


I totally respect that, I feel the same way and it's one of the reasons why if I do raid again, it won't be in a hardcore min/maxer group. I love the tanking-healing-DPS gameplay of raids and dungeons and that's ALL I want to do in WoW. Tedious farming of consumables and the constant treadmill of boring easy dailies is not my idea of fun. Some weeks I only have time to (or only want to) login for raids. That was possible in Cata but min/max MOP raiding requires too much upkeep that I simply do not want to do.

I disagree with you on the whole entitlement thing but that argument has been done to death so I won't rehash it.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:54 pm

Lieris wrote:
halabar wrote:I don't think that was the point we were making.. the issue is still the work involved in catchup, assuming you don't have a already well geared group to drag you through. As I mentioned before, my raid team is going to need to do a lot before they are ready for N T15.


Nooska brought up recruitment and making the step up to proper raiding so I addressed that specifically. I appreciate LFR would help your guild but isn't there a bunch of new rep and badge gear too? I can't pretend to know what it's like for your guild but overall I think LFR is harmful enough for normal guilds in terms of player pool for recruitment, having it super early like with Dragon Soul (*spit*) would hurt guilds like yours even more.


Part of the new valor gear is blocked behind the raid rep, which is the biggest thing. Those who can hit those raids will get the raid rep fast, and quickly get into that gear. Those who are going to rely on LFR to get that raid rep to start will fall behind for a while.

The LFR gear itself isn't as much as help, since it's 502 vs 522 for the raid rep. The faction rep gear is only 496, so that's still on 5.1 level.

So for a raid team to get to a ilvl 500ish across the board is going to be a real challenge in some cases.

However...

I do also agree releasing it too fast is a problem as well, as people will burn out on LFR long before they actually see the normal raids. So it's a Catch-22. Do you risk boredom/burnout, or do you stretch out the community too far, and risk the BC-era guild/raid-team jumping as the better players who can put in more time start hopping up the guild ladder?

Note: I do actually prefer this method of stretching things out a bit. But I also see the potential consequences.

It will be interesting to see the impact on the overall community as some guilds are clearing heroic T15 while others are still working on N T14. It's been a while since we had that kind of spread (really, not since BC, with Kara/Trolls/BT). Ever since then, everyone was pushed into the new tier. In the past we also had new heroics (such as the redone Trolls) to help bridge the gap for the undergeared, but we don't have that this time.

As I mentioned, within my own raid team, which is part of a massive guild (3000+ toons), I imagine we'll loose some that want to hit the new content (but likely aren't ready for it), especially among the newer players. But time will tell...

Key thing probably will be just how much the "improved drop rates" will help.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:58 pm

halabar wrote:Key thing probably will be just how much the "improved drop rates" will help.


Would've been nice if they improved drop rates in T14 normal and heroics as well.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:02 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:
halabar wrote:Key thing probably will be just how much the "improved drop rates" will help.


Would've been nice if they improved drop rates in T14 normal and heroics as well.


Yeah, those drop rates won't help me since I don't have any elder coins, and would not have bought them anyway. Boosting the actual drops in the raids would be preferred.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:10 pm

Of course the other side of the coin is that the upper-tier raiders feel entitled to see the content before everyone else for some reason known only to them.

What is the compelling reason that only the top tier should have access to the new raid for any length of time? From my perspective, I say they are the ones feeling entitlement.


Uh.

The reason Blizzard feel the "need" to do the gating is that with LFR off the bat, they still haven't successfully been able to make it so that "upper-tier raiders" are not incentivised to go into LFR as well.

The exact reason they cited for why Ra'den LFR will be "later than usual" is because they expect Ra'Den Normal to take a while, and they don't want that to be diminished by people having already farmed Ra'Den for weeks when they actually get to him and kill him.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:15 pm

Think you mean Lei Shen there. Ra-den is the heroic-only boss.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:27 pm

Yeah, that.
Bleep, regardless of what Blizzard says about optional, Ra'den > Lei Shen.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Koatanga » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:02 pm

Darielle wrote:
Of course the other side of the coin is that the upper-tier raiders feel entitled to see the content before everyone else for some reason known only to them.

What is the compelling reason that only the top tier should have access to the new raid for any length of time? From my perspective, I say they are the ones feeling entitlement.


Uh.

The reason Blizzard feel the "need" to do the gating is that with LFR off the bat, they still haven't successfully been able to make it so that "upper-tier raiders" are not incentivised to go into LFR as well.

The exact reason they cited for why Ra'den LFR will be "later than usual" is because they expect Ra'Den Normal to take a while, and they don't want that to be diminished by people having already farmed Ra'Den for weeks when they actually get to him and kill him.


They don't "have to" farm LFR any more than casuals "have to" to the rep grinds and dailies. People have been telling me all along how if I didn't like dailies and rep grinds I don't have to do them. Well, if people want their kill to be fresh, they don't have to do LFR and burn themselves out on it, do they?

The fact that doing LFR is practically mandatory if you want to progress is irrelevant, because the rep/badge gear is practically mandatory if casuals want to progress. In both cases people are incentivised to do things they don't want to do, so I reckon the same advice applies to both cases. Don't like it? Just don't do it. Problem solved - or at least that's what I've been told.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Worldie » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:07 pm

halabar wrote:It will be interesting to see the impact on the overall community as some guilds are clearing heroic T15 while others are still working on N T14. It's been a while since we had that kind of spread (really, not since BC, with Kara/Trolls/BT). Ever since then, everyone was pushed into the new tier. In the past we also had new heroics (such as the redone Trolls) to help bridge the gap for the undergeared, but we don't have that this time.

I for one welcome this return to TBC style. I always found... weird that the old tier basically got demoted even below PuG interest when a new tier came out since heroics / pvp would grant gear that was same or higher ilvl than the previous normal tier.

I also like the new way of helping people gear up through LFR, aka pumping the loot chance to a very high level (and with the new system, no loot drama!), will mean that if you newly ding 90 on a char, maybe you won't be "last tier ready" within 1 day of dinging, but will actually have to run heroics -> previous LFR / reps -> current LFR / reps in order to access the last tier, making it still possible to reroll or gear up an alt, but not as dull and boring as it was in Wotlk/Cata, aka just spamming heroics for 7-8 hours and be done with it.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Koatanga » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:32 pm

Worldie wrote:
halabar wrote:It will be interesting to see the impact on the overall community as some guilds are clearing heroic T15 while others are still working on N T14. It's been a while since we had that kind of spread (really, not since BC, with Kara/Trolls/BT). Ever since then, everyone was pushed into the new tier. In the past we also had new heroics (such as the redone Trolls) to help bridge the gap for the undergeared, but we don't have that this time.

I for one welcome this return to TBC style. I always found... weird that the old tier basically got demoted even below PuG interest when a new tier came out since heroics / pvp would grant gear that was same or higher ilvl than the previous normal tier.

I also like the new way of helping people gear up through LFR, aka pumping the loot chance to a very high level (and with the new system, no loot drama!), will mean that if you newly ding 90 on a char, maybe you won't be "last tier ready" within 1 day of dinging, but will actually have to run heroics -> previous LFR / reps -> current LFR / reps in order to access the last tier, making it still possible to reroll or gear up an alt, but not as dull and boring as it was in Wotlk/Cata, aka just spamming heroics for 7-8 hours and be done with it.

I also like the TBC model where the prior tier is still the current tier for many people. My arguments were largely a devil's advocate response to the egotistical crap about "entitlement" if we lowbies want to play with their bosses in LFR mode. We're not defective mouth-breathing morons, or at least not all of us. Some of us are just semi-retired from the hardcore life because it's largely full of drama and crap that we got tired of after years of doing it.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:50 pm

Worldie wrote:
halabar wrote:It will be interesting to see the impact on the overall community as some guilds are clearing heroic T15 while others are still working on N T14. It's been a while since we had that kind of spread (really, not since BC, with Kara/Trolls/BT). Ever since then, everyone was pushed into the new tier. In the past we also had new heroics (such as the redone Trolls) to help bridge the gap for the undergeared, but we don't have that this time.

I for one welcome this return to TBC style. I always found... weird that the old tier basically got demoted even below PuG interest when a new tier came out since heroics / pvp would grant gear that was same or higher ilvl than the previous normal tier.

I also like the new way of helping people gear up through LFR, aka pumping the loot chance to a very high level (and with the new system, no loot drama!), will mean that if you newly ding 90 on a char, maybe you won't be "last tier ready" within 1 day of dinging, but will actually have to run heroics -> previous LFR / reps -> current LFR / reps in order to access the last tier, making it still possible to reroll or gear up an alt, but not as dull and boring as it was in Wotlk/Cata, aka just spamming heroics for 7-8 hours and be done with it.


And I don't really mind it at all, but there is probably a gap going from dinging 90 and hitting 5.0 LFRs that's still a bit rough. Would be better if that didn't require endless heroics, allthough the discounted valor gear will help.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Worldie » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:51 pm

With 476 gear being very cheap, it doesnt take much to get 460 ilvl. At least I could get it easily in 1 day on my last 3 alts.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Koatanga » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:01 pm

Worldie wrote:With 476 gear being very cheap, it doesnt take much to get 460 ilvl. At least I could get it easily in 1 day on my last 3 alts.

460 is a piece of cake. 470 is more difficult - you pretty much need the crafted items plus heroic gear in every slot. My druid had crafted hands and chest, 476 inscription weapon, and darkmoon trink and it still took a bit of grinding to hit 470. I could have bought some BoEs to make it easier, but 476 in a couple of slots really doesn't do much for the average when you're trying to hit 470. You're better off running heroics for the drops and JPs for upgrading your blues.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:04 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Worldie wrote:With 476 gear being very cheap, it doesnt take much to get 460 ilvl. At least I could get it easily in 1 day on my last 3 alts.

460 is a piece of cake. 470 is more difficult - you pretty much need the crafted items plus heroic gear in every slot. My druid had crafted hands and chest, 476 inscription weapon, and darkmoon trink and it still took a bit of grinding to hit 470. I could have bought some BoEs to make it easier, but 476 in a couple of slots really doesn't do much for the average when you're trying to hit 470. You're better off running heroics for the drops and JPs for upgrading your blues.


Except no more JP upgrades... :wink:

Adding the new 522 valor neck will make a bigger difference. But if you can't get in LFR yet, that's still painful heroics to get the valor to start with.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Worldie » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:16 pm

I think they should improve Scenario droprate of 463 blues. I think right now with just "a small chance" of getting a loot which you might not even need isn't enough to justify doing Scenarios for anything else than some quick Valors.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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