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[10N] HOF Talents & Glyphs per Encounter

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[10N] HOF Talents & Glyphs per Encounter

Postby protadinXX » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:44 pm

Could use good suggestions from experienced tanks, please!

Credit to:
-http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/12/15/the-light-and-how-to-swing-it-talents-and-glyphs-for-tanking-he/#continued


Image

Normal Glyphs:
Glyph of the Alabaster Shield
Glyph of Divine Protection
Glyph of Battle Healer

Normal Talents:
Tier 1: Pursuit of Justice (check change on Imperial Vizier)
Tier 2: Fist of Justice
Tier 3: Sacred Shield
Tier 4: Unbreakable Spirit (check change on almost every boss)
Tier 5: Holy Avenger
Tier 6: Light's Hammer



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Imperial Vizier Zor'lok:
- TIER 1 Talent: to Speed of Light (for moving btwn platforms)
- Drop LH on as many shields as possible during Force and Verve
- Fist of Justice (and Tauren stomp) converted raid members




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Blade Master Tay'ak:
- Tier 1 Talent: back to Pursuit of Justice
- Tier 4 Talent: Clemency to counter wind step
- Drop LH on the entire raid group during the group-up sections



Image
Garalon:
- Tier 4 Talent: back to Unbreakable Spirit
- Move to be in range of other players for Battle Healer
- Drop LH for melee



Image
Wind Lord Mel'jarak:
- TIER 4 Talent: to Clemency
- Hand of Protection and/or Sacrifice on Kor'thik Strike targets
- Drop LH on entire raid group as much as possible



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Amber-Shaper Un'sok:
- TIER 4 Talent: to Hand of Purity (use about 20 seconds into Parasitic Growth)
- Drop LH on entire raid group as much as possible



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Grand Empress Shek'zeer:
- TIER 4 Talent: to Clemency (block Sonic Discharges on two peeps)
- When not tanking Empress, stack on melee for battle healer
- Drop LH on entire raid group as much as possible

Random:
- Drop LH on yourself and the boss any time you won't need it in the next minute and you have a free GCD.
Last edited by protadinXX on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [10N] HOF Talents & Glyphs per Encounter

Postby Gab » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:14 am

protadinXX wrote:Imperial Vizier Zor'lok:


Clemency is a good choice here, because both Force and Verve and Attenuation are physical damage BoPs can save anyone who is under the wrong shield or isn't the best dancer. Two Sacs certainly doesn't hurt either.


protadinXX wrote:Blade Master Tay'ak:
- Tier 1 Talent: back to Pursuit of Justice
- Tier 4 Talent: Clemency to counter wind step


Speed of Light is very strong for the 2nd phase if you don't have druid roars.

Also Purity can cover Wind Step during every Unseen strike (and tempest on heroic) where BoPs can only cover 2.

protadinXX wrote:Garalon:
- Tier 4 Talent: back to Unbreakable Spirit


I'd say Clemency and Purity are both better choice here.
BoPs on any low raid members right before crush or if you are having tanks kite pheromones BoPs are great so that the pheromone swapping with tanks don't get fury swiped.

Purity is great for the current pheromone if you don't need the extra BoPs.

I'm seeing a pattern here, I'm just not a fan of Unbreakable Spirit apparently, just way too much utility from the other two.

protadinXX wrote:Amber-Shaper Un'sok:
- TIER 4 Talent: to Hand of Purity (use about 20 seconds into Parasitic Growth)
- Drop LH on entire raid group as much as possible


I'd switch out Battle Healer for a dps glyph and wouldn't drop LH on the Raid because of parasites. Purity and Sacred Shield will obviously take care of people but if you get shaped after dropping a LH and a bunch of Insight healing early on in parasite you won't be able to help undo the damage you've caused.

protadinXX wrote:Grand Empress Shek'zeer:
- TIER 4 Talent: to Clemency (block Sonic Discharges on two peeps)


Purity again is stronger here imo, Purity can cover a lot of the damage that the Terror debuffed player standing in Disonance takes and when combined with sacred shield is absolutely amazing for getting the fields down quickly.

Edit: Also if you are having trouble surviving the adds in p2 (although HA makes it relatively easy) and are short on group stuns then Glyph of Blinding Light can be pretty useful.
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Re: [10N] HOF Talents & Glyphs per Encounter

Postby Belloc » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:28 am

Gabs suggested changes are right on.
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Re: [10N] HOF Talents & Glyphs per Encounter

Postby PsiVen » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:47 am

Please shrink those images to a sensible size, this presentation is very hard to read...
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Re: [10N] HOF Talents & Glyphs per Encounter

Postby econ21 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:15 am

On Garalon, one video of tips on youtube said swap glyph of battle healer for focused shield. I'm reluctant to follow that tip without understanding a couple of mechanics.

(1) Is it true that avenger shield won't bounce from a leg to the boss?

(2) The argument about battle healer was that your raid will be too spread out to benefit from it. But wouldn't the other soaker get the full heal (or is a lot of it wasted)?

Thanks for any advice (just me Garalon for the first time the other day and think I'm going to be enjoying his company for a while).
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Re: [10N] HOF Talents & Glyphs per Encounter

Postby Gab » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:14 am

econ21 wrote:On Garalon, one video of tips on youtube said swap glyph of battle healer for focused shield. I'm reluctant to follow that tip without understanding a couple of mechanics.

(1) Is it true that avenger shield won't bounce from a leg to the boss?

(2) The argument about battle healer was that your raid will be too spread out to benefit from it. But wouldn't the other soaker get the full heal (or is a lot of it wasted)?

Thanks for any advice (just me Garalon for the first time the other day and think I'm going to be enjoying his company for a while).


AS doesn't bounce to the body afaik and you wouldn't want to it to bounce to legs, from body, even if it could because you aren't getting the exposed buff on back legs. You'd just be "stealing" dps.

Depending on where you have your ranged/healers stacking, Battle healer should have plenty of targets to be somewhat useful. If you aren't using Battle Healer what three glyphs would be using? Outside of Battle Healer, Focused Shield and Divine Protection there aren't really any other choices. You could aruge for replacing Battle Healer with either Double Jeopardy or Final Wrath but the only reason you would do that is if healing isn't an issue and you are hitting enrage.
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Re: [10N] HOF Talents & Glyphs per Encounter

Postby Fenrìr » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:23 am

Personally I unglyph DP for Garalon as I'm a kiter and the extra dmg reduction with pheromones is helpful.
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Re: [10N] HOF Talents & Glyphs per Encounter

Postby Gab » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:43 am

Fenrìr wrote:Personally I unglyph DP for Garalon as I'm a kiter and the extra dmg reduction with pheromones is helpful.


This can work, I kite as well. I just prefer GoAK/AD/Purity for kiting and DP for Crush/Swipe combinations although ShoR already does a pretty good job of mitigating all that physical damage. Personally I have plenty of other CDs for kiting and with such a short CD on DP it seems more useful to glyph it YMMV.
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Re: [10N] HOF Talents & Glyphs per Encounter

Postby Darielle » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:22 am

AS doesn't bounce to the body afaik and you wouldn't want to it to bounce to legs, from body, even if it could because you aren't getting the exposed buff on back legs. You'd just be "stealing" dps.


Uh, bouncing from body to legs is the pretty much definition free dps, if you can get it going that way.
That said, I have never seen it bounce that way, so the stronger AS is still best.

Losing BH on Garalon seems like a complete waste, as mentioned. DP is the only one that might even be worth dropping.
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Re: [10N] HOF Talents & Glyphs per Encounter

Postby Gab » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:29 am

Darielle wrote:Uh, bouncing from body to legs is the pretty much definition free dps, if you can get it going that way.
That said, I have never seen it bounce that way, so the stronger AS is still best.

Losing BH on Garalon seems like a complete waste, as mentioned. DP is the only one that might even be worth dropping.


.....UH..... Whenever you deal non Weak Point damage to a leg you are effectively losing RDPS, or lowering ("stealing") your cleavers DPS by a disproportionate amount to your DPS gain, because of the set respawn on legs. It would be a different story if the legs instantly respawned. That's not even figuring in the fact that you're losing 30% off of your AS to the body.

Although it's pretty much irrelevant since AS, as far as I can tell, doesn't bounce. I'm failing to understand the point of this post...
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Re: [10N] HOF Talents & Glyphs per Encounter

Postby Belloc » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:33 am

Unless something causes the legs to move closer to the body at random points in the fight, avenger shield will not bounce.

That said, if it did bounce, it would be preferable to use it that way. You're not "stealing" DPS away from your leg team by dealing "free" damage to the legs, even if it comes at the cost of 30% body damage. If AS hit the body and the leg, that would still be a DPS gain. An analogy would be if a random class had a talent that caused all of their abilities to splash some damage in a 30 yard circle around the target. Attacking Garalon would cause that damage to splash to the legs. Sure, it's damage that isn't modified by the exposed weakness, but it's still damage that no longer has to be done and is, essentially, "free" (though, in that case, you'd probably have that player focused on a leg for the increased splash damage, but the point remains).

Hypothetical Avenger Shield example: Hitting a leg and the body, each for 35,000, equals 70,000 damage to Garalon (assuming the leg gets killed at some point). That's better than hitting just the body for 45,000.

You already gave the reason for this, though you were arguing the opposite: The respawn timer of the legs. Sure, your DPS might lose a cast or two on the legs due to the extra damage, but those casts can then be made on the body instead. Where the leg used to take, say, 15 seconds to die, it now takes 13-14 seconds. That's an extra second or two of DPS on the body. How can that possibly be less efficient or effective? Legs die faster, body dies faster, boss dies faster.

Again, this isn't relevant when discussing AS, since it does not, in fact, bounce on this fight. It is, however, potentially relevant to other classes and other abilities. Yes, you want a dedicated leg team to maximize DPS. No, incidental ("free") damage does not compromise this objective.

This, of course, only applies to incidental (free) damage. A DPS focusing on a leg while not having the Exposed Weakness buff is obviously a detriment to your raid. A person focusing on the body, though, and still dealing incidental damage to a leg is 100% desireable. As long as the damage to the leg does not come at an equal cost as the damage on the body (as per the hypothetical AS example above), you come out ahead.

The only "bad" leg damage is when someone is specifically attacking a leg without the exposed weakness buff. Damage that splashes onto the legs is, with few exceptions, a good thing.
Last edited by Belloc on Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: [10N] HOF Talents & Glyphs per Encounter

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:55 am

Belloc wrote:Unless something causes the legs to move closer to the body at random points in the fight, avenger shield will not bounce.

The legs never, ever move relative to the body, at least for targetting purposes. Though they appear to move around, they're always actually dead centre in the fixed circles.
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Re: [10N] HOF Talents & Glyphs per Encounter

Postby Belloc » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:59 am

KysenMurrin wrote:
Belloc wrote:Unless something causes the legs to move closer to the body at random points in the fight, avenger shield will not bounce.

The legs never, ever move relative to the body, at least for targetting purposes. Though they appear to move around, they're always actually dead centre in the fixed circles.

I kind of figured that was the case. Most of my post was hypothetical, since AS does not actually bounce on this fight, but I wanted to go over the merits of "free" DPS.
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Re: [10N] HOF Talents & Glyphs per Encounter

Postby Gab » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:22 pm

Belloc wrote:I kind of figured that was the case. Most of my post was hypothetical, since AS does not actually bounce on this fight, but I wanted to go over the merits of "free" DPS.


The dps is not free... You are preventing BUFFED dps from utilizing cleave abilities such as Blade Flurry, Howling Blast, Sweeping Strikes/Whirlwind (Raging Blow? w/e it is warriors do...) by killing the legs with unbuffed damage, It's definitely a net RDPS loss and loss in overall buff uptime.
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Re: [10N] HOF Talents & Glyphs per Encounter

Postby Belloc » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:30 pm

Gab wrote:
Belloc wrote:I kind of figured that was the case. Most of my post was hypothetical, since AS does not actually bounce on this fight, but I wanted to go over the merits of "free" DPS.


The dps is not free... You are preventing BUFFED dps from utilizing cleave abilities such as Blade Flurry, Howling Blast, Sweeping Strikes/Whirlwind (Raging Blow? w/e it is warriors do...) by killing the legs with unbuffed damage, It's definitely a net RDPS loss and loss in overall buff uptime.

From a purely mathematical perspective, I do not disagree.

If, for instance, you are splashing damage onto a leg that is currently outside of the fight boundary (which is a regular occurrance for many raids and strategies), then I fail to see how you are preventing anyone from doing anything. You said it yourself when you mentioned the respawn timer. You've got three legs down and one leg that can't be directly attacked because it's outside of the wall. Splashing damage onto that leg isn't a bad thing.

I will agree that, with a proper raid composition, it does become a DPS loss to splash damage onto certain legs. Not every raid brings a proper comp, though. The more non-cleave DPS you have to assign to legs, the more valuable splash damage becomes.
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