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[25N] HoF - Garalon DPS Problem Solving (HELP!)

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[25N] HoF - Garalon DPS Problem Solving (HELP!)

Postby Mordral » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:52 am

Greetings!

I need some mathing/reasoning/logic help on this. I've got a bunch of my fellow raiders who are playing the "everyone says/all the guides say/whatever says" card telling me that all the DPS need to be on legs as soon as they spawn. I personally believe this is less than optimal, and here is why:

Garalon has 654,205,504 HP on 25N
His legs have 19,626,164 HP, or exactly 3% of his HP

We should all be aware that standing in the circle around his leg doubles your damage dealt to that leg, and that killing a leg drops 3% off his HP.

My understanding is that he starts mending one leg at a time on a 30 second cooldown when either the encounter begins, or when the first leg dies. For simplicity lets say that the timer starts when his first leg dies at ~15 seconds. (I'm open to correction if you can articulate how the 15 second difference actually adds a useful leg over the length of the fight.) His enrage is 7 minutes. We kill three of his original legs to reduce his speed right at the start - melee starts on back right, ranged starts on front left and then they both do rear left. DPS ignores the front right (outside) leg because it is a pain to DPS, the movement speed aids our kiters, and our tanks just cleave it down over the fight with a targeted kill time of roughly 15 seconds before enrage or boss death.

OK so you have the base 4 legs (3 at the start, 1 at the end) = 12%
New legs spawn at -lets say- 0:45, 1:15, 1:45, 2:15, 2:45, 3:15, 3:45, 4:15, 4:45, 5:15, 5:45, 6:15 and 6:45 = 13 legs = 39%
For a total of 51% from legs ASSUMING the last leg can actually be killed in time. Our attempts are usually only 12 legs because we're behind enrage and swapping the entire DPS section for a 3% pop when you need 7% isn't going to cut it. 12 legs + 4 base legs = 48% which is consistent with our logs.

I figure the maximum efficiency that can be had when DPSing legs is killing them in ~25 seconds. At this rate, it gives a few seconds for the melee to centralize from far corner legs and prepare for the next leg. Any slower and we risk falling behind and having a boss that moves too fast. The only favorable result I can see from killing them faster is a more controllable boss. With our strategy working as intended we should see legs die in the 18-22 second range.

If only 48% of his HP comes out of his legs then 52% of his HP must come DIRECTLY out of his body.

After the first three legs are down, our plan handles the mid-fight DPS as follows:
Melee does legs
Ranged does body

The problem we run into is that when we wipe to 3-4%, some of our "smarter" ranged players start "helping" with legs which grants them a personal DPS gain, however our raid DPS typically goes down as a result and we end up farther and farther off as more people "help".

In one example, a ranged caster runs from leg to leg with a little over 50% buff uptime for a net gain of roughly 10% DPS. I'd estimate that they with movement and everything else they might gain a total of 20% personal DPS while actually under the effect of the buff. On the other hand, some of our melee gain 80%-90% DPS realistically, but due to others killing off the legs, they only have ~70% uptime at best - usually in the low to mid 60% range.

Am I wrong in thinking that the folks who can take advantage of this mechanic most efficiently should do so, and that inefficiently raising PDPS is a one way ticket to enrage?

I've heard constantly that these are fixed health pools and that damage done is damage done. However, with the buffs being tied to HP rather than time, I think it makes the most sense to have the highest average efficiency DPSing them for the maximum time available. We're wiping to enrage here and I have it stuck in my head that 20% additional damage can't be equal to 80% additional damage.

Am I wrong here?
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Re: [25N] HoF - Garalon DPS Problem Solving (HELP!)

Postby daishan » Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:47 am

Yep your correct.
If one combat rogue could cleave down a leg before a new one spawns it'd be best for the raid if no one else touched them.
Obviously you'll need a few dps on the legs on 25 man, after zerging down 3 legs on the pull just put your best cleave dps on the legs and no one else, only have ranged on legs if they happen to be much higher dps than your melee and are classes that can stay in the buff circles efficiently.
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Re: [25N] HoF - Garalon DPS Problem Solving (HELP!)

Postby Chronos » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:01 am

Everything youre saying looks correct. Top US 10H Ret opinion: Ive tried for weeks to convince my ranged to ignore legs after the pull both in 10N and 10H. We would run into zerk and they werent realizing that though personal dps went up for RDPS overall raid damage went down. For example, a hunter and spriest would each gain 10 or 15 and then I would lose 30+ with 10s of nolegs being up between every spawn.
The one very important part that I think a lot of people miss is that it is very helpful to know as melee where the next leg is as youre killing one. This saves a LOT of movement time and really ups thr melees damage. I would guess 5 seconds lost if I didnt know where the next leg was. Like you said RDPS see their dps go up and think they are helping but all the damage they are doing to legs can be done by the melee. If your melee are half decent I doubt they would fall behind on legs. If thry are have ranged that can move and dps step in to help but only when asked for. (hunters locks if a third leg is about to spawn) Ranged could help burst last leg right before zerk and off the pull.
The other key thing that might help your raid is that you explain basically what you already said - that regardless of who is on legs you are going to have the same number of legs every pull they are going to die one way or another. What you need to get that last 5% is not more leg damage but more body damage.
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Re: [25N] HoF - Garalon DPS Problem Solving (HELP!)

Postby Rhiannon » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:45 am

Eh, a ranged dps is not inherently worse than a non-cleaving melee if they only dps legs while in circles. E.g. affliction warlock and shadow priest both get a significant resource/dps gain gain from being able to keep corruption/vt on legs/deathing legs for extra shards/orbs/twist of fate procs and should lose no dps time if they play sensibly and don't just run to each leg without thinking about their movement. If you're killing legs too fast I'd probably tell the non-cleaving melee to spend more time on garalon before the multi-dotters, assuming the multi-dotters are good.
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Re: [25N] HoF - Garalon DPS Problem Solving (HELP!)

Postby Belloc » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:25 am

I'd also like to note that the leg you choose to leave up is relatively important, as well. If you kite clockwise, for instance, you'll want to leave the boss' front left left up (the leg that will be outside of the fight-wall for most of the fight). This way, when legs respawn, you've got a high chance of a respawning leg appearing in the back, requiring less movement.

It's been stated that you want cleave-type DPS to be the ones on the legs, and that's certainly true. I'd also like to add that it's fine for some classes (s.priests, aff locks) to put up DoTs on the legs, but I wouldn't suggest putting them on there full-time. In the case of aff locks, staying on the leg full-time = less time for corruption to generate soul shards.

Essentially, you're going to have to figure out a good leg team and start penalizing anyone else who is attacking legs.

Best of luck!
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Re: [25N] HoF - Garalon DPS Problem Solving (HELP!)

Postby Mordral » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:09 am

Rhiannon wrote:Eh, a ranged dps is not inherently worse than a non-cleaving melee if they only dps legs while in circles.


Yes and fully agreed - although my original post didn't indicate that this was understood. The ideal DPSers for the leg buffs are ones who can play sensibly and use that buff to the greatest advantage. Going forward I'd like to take the folks who get the greatest DPS gains and add/remove them from leg duty until the legs are dying at correct intervals. A second or two over-lap might not be a bad idea as Chronos indicated due to KNOWING where you will be headed rather than centralizing and possibly returning to the previous spot. We'll be working on efficiency first then possibly look at overlapping if we're struggling still. I believe that once we get our vast misuse of the buff under control we should be fine.

I had considered discussing "fishing for procs" but felt it wasn't needed for our specific purposes. Ultimately I think if you are going to fish from outside the circle for a nuke proc to be applied to the body, then the damage added from procs needs to do at least 180% of the damage your DoT/whatever does to the leg. If you can work with the leg efficiently then you'd fish for procs off the body to nuke the leg. Ultimately it comes down to class efficiency and how much DPS individual users can do while constantly having to move. It could very easily turn out that a... 'special' melee who has trouble producing numbers while moving could rightfully be replaced by something like a Hunter.

This logic also applies to cleave. If the 200% main strike to the leg + the 100% secondary strike to the body are less than a standard Heroic Strike to the leg alone, then this is actually an efficiency/DPS loss - assuming that you could stop everyone cleaving and the increase in single-target DPS allows you to remove the lowest efficiency DPS from the leg by doing so. This is "ideal world" math and the difference may not justify the time spent thinking about it.

A 10% DPS gain for a caster running leg to leg/stutter stepping with the leg circle isn't exactly what I'd call good. In fact, as an admission of guilt, the two tanks have been jumping into the inside front leg circle to 'help out' which is total fail since we aren't ALWAYS within the confines of the circle. We'll be putting an end to that as well - in fact I'm rather ashamed we didn't realize it earlier.

Unfortunately we also run into the fact that the top 8 of our ~10 ranged are on kite detail.



Belloc - Clear on leg, we kite CCW and leave the front RIGHT (outside) leg up.

The instance tuning in MoP is indeed harder than Cata and we are going to have to start coming up with better and more specific strategies to better utilize our raiders. A crack team of leg humpers will be formed.



One of the worst attempts this week we went 7:58 with me valiantly chasing the remaining front leg in circles until I died to pheromones. Our first kill also involved a Prot Paladin living through enrage like a boss, Warlocks doing Warlock things to get a couple extra GCDs in, an angel form Priest healing their ass off and Shaman rising from the dead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gow9w8BbpF0

The "Blood Queen Strategy"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tywTxyIguBw

Paladin - the original Hero class.

Thanks all for the help, I hope to bring you some good news next week!
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Re: [25N] HoF - Garalon DPS Problem Solving (HELP!)

Postby Darielle » Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:18 pm

I figure the maximum efficiency that can be had when DPSing legs is killing them in ~25 seconds. At this rate, it gives a few seconds for the melee to centralize from far corner legs and prepare for the next leg. Any slower and we risk falling behind and having a boss that moves too fast. The only favorable result I can see from killing them faster is a more controllable boss. With our strategy working as intended we should see legs die in the 18-22 second range.


The maximum efficiency that can be had when killing legs is to not let 4 of them get back up.

IT's absolutely fine to leave 1 or 2 legs up even the entire fight if you want to (some leave the outside legs up so that only the inside legs will ever respawn). As long as you aren't sitting there back at 4 legs, you want to do as little as possible to keep pace with that. The boss' speed should not be an issue, you ultimately have the exact same space to work with, whether you do 2 laps with everything tightly spaced or 3 laps with loose gaps in between.

The more passive damage you can sneak into them (instead of active damage from people deliberately switching), the better. If you have people who are dot classes, you want to let dots run their full course, have people switch off at 20% or whatever and let dot ticks trail the remaining damage, and so on.
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Re: [25N] HoF - Garalon DPS Problem Solving (HELP!)

Postby Mordral » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:15 pm

Darielle wrote:The maximum efficiency that can be had when killing legs is to not let 4 of them get back up.

IT's absolutely fine to leave 1 or 2 legs up even the entire fight if you want to (some leave the outside legs up so that only the inside legs will ever respawn). As long as you aren't sitting there back at 4 legs, you want to do as little as possible to keep pace with that. The boss' speed should not be an issue, you ultimately have the exact same space to work with, whether you do 2 laps with everything tightly spaced or 3 laps with loose gaps in between.


Er, yes-ish? Technically true, however in our case I would expect (even from our best players) a DPS loss from both kiters and melee due to increased movement.

You may argue that melee shouldn't have a DPS loss, and this is largely true, but I don't think its applicable to our specific situation. If we could make it work for us it would probably make the most sense to put the 'leg team' on the back and experienced multi-dotters on the inside front.

We already have kite path issues with only 1.8 legs up (Outside front + most of the one being killed). If we went any faster I think we would see kiter DPS drop significantly and the over-all stability of the fight turn to shit. Maybe, maybe not. Some of our pheromones swaps are already a little sketchy as it is.


The more passive damage you can sneak into them (instead of active damage from people deliberately switching), the better. If you have people who are dot classes, you want to let dots run their full course, have people switch off at 20% or whatever and let dot ticks trail the remaining damage, and so on.


That would be interesting to have a solid dot class or two with the 'leg team' while using a strategy involving a slight over-lap. If phase one of our adjustments don't work well enough then we'll look into this.

You all have given some magnificent advice. Hopefully all we need to do is re-task our DPS more efficiently and get folks to stick with their assignments. Unfortunately you can lead a raider to water, but you can't hold their head under... or something like that :D

I'm Getting REAL tired of failing at the "Other people say to do it like THIS" Boss. You wipe instantly when you ask "Why?" and their only answer is "Because that's how they say to do it!"
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Re: [25N] HoF - Garalon DPS Problem Solving (HELP!)

Postby Darielle » Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:06 pm

Er, yes-ish? Technically true, however in our case I would expect (even from our best players) a DPS loss from both kiters and melee due to increased movement.


There's zero reason for kiters to have to move additionally, with 4 legs down kiters will be sitting there finding ways to slow down or do circles to avoid going out of range of Garalon as it is.

You may argue that melee shouldn't have a DPS loss, and this is largely true, but I don't think its applicable to our specific situation. If we could make it work for us it would probably make the most sense to put the 'leg team' on the back and experienced multi-dotters on the inside front.


The point of choosing your legs is that any effect from this kind of thing is completely outweighed by the fact that you don't have silly legs respawning in the middle of nowhere where it's inconvenient for, say, the same melee to get to them becuase of moving out of range of healers, or anything silly like that.
Increasing fight stability and control is what the effect of this is, and you can control/adapt it as you want. Leaving one leg up (the back right), or simply delay its kill until it's away from the invisible wall area (as an example, we don't actively keep it up because we don't need to, but we do delay its kill on the initial burn so that his first respawn will be inside, then we let dots trail it down), and you'll get 80% of the benefit without having to worry about the things you're worrying about.

To sort of summarise the purpose, MOST dps leg issues tend to be a consequence of an attitude of "MUST KILL LEGS NOW". And that's what is counterproductive. At the same time, it IS convenient to have passive damage going as much as possible, because it means you can avoid/minimise active damage needed (e.g. it it's inside leg, you have it already down to 50% instead of switching to a leg that was over the invisible wall and is still at 98%)
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Re: [25N] HoF - Garalon DPS Problem Solving (HELP!)

Postby Mordral » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:51 pm

Darielle wrote:There's zero reason for kiters to have to move additionally, with 4 legs down kiters will be sitting there finding ways to slow down or do circles to avoid going out of range of Garalon as it is.


There is a misunderstanding here - I was referencing additional movement issues from having 3+ legs up (3 up, possibly a 4th briefly while the current one dies).


The point of choosing your legs is that any effect from this kind of thing is completely outweighed by the fact that you don't have silly legs respawning in the middle of nowhere where it's inconvenient for, say, the same melee to get to them becuase of moving out of range of healers, or anything silly like that.
Increasing fight stability and control is what the effect of this is, and you can control/adapt it as you want. Leaving one leg up (the back right), or simply delay its kill until it's away from the invisible wall area (as an example, we don't actively keep it up because we don't need to, but we do delay its kill on the initial burn so that his first respawn will be inside, then we let dots trail it down), and you'll get 80% of the benefit without having to worry about the things you're worrying about.

To sort of summarise the purpose, MOST dps leg issues tend to be a consequence of an attitude of "MUST KILL LEGS NOW". And that's what is counterproductive. At the same time, it IS convenient to have passive damage going as much as possible, because it means you can avoid/minimise active damage needed (e.g. it it's inside leg, you have it already down to 50% instead of switching to a leg that was over the invisible wall and is still at 98%)


We're on roughly the same page. This whole post is because of the "MUST KILL LEGS NOW" mentality which usually gets us to 3% wipes. Thankfully with our strat we don't have invisible wall issues and the tanks work the only real bad leg spawn (Outside front). Our DPS numbers don't leave much room for inefficiency so its up to us to come up with a control strategy that min/maxes our DPSers.

Bad news everyone, we wiped all week to the Attendance Boss.
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Re: [25N] HoF - Garalon DPS Problem Solving (HELP!)

Postby Darielle » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:39 am

There is a misunderstanding here - I was referencing additional movement issues from having 3+ legs up (3 up, possibly a 4th briefly while the current one dies).


I'm referring to that too, aside from the very moment of the pull, it shouldn't be much of an issue, from my experiences you spend pretty much most of the fight after the first minute or so trying to make cirles or clovers or other patterns because if you actually lay them out in a line you'll end up in Vael's room.

Sorry to hear about attendance boss.
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