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patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:25 pm

No one said we could only talk about Paladins here. ;) I've been a Shaman main for a couple of years now.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:43 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:No one said we could only talk about Paladins here. ;) I've been a Shaman main for a couple of years now.


Indeed.. :-)

And I can't see how that trinket would be really useful for any of the agi classes. The trinket would hard-cap MM mastery, while gimping at the same time due to no crit, or push haste past GCD points making much of the increase useless. At best you would want it for crit, but even then the value diminishes with the huge increases. I don't even want to try to figure out what it would do for a feral.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:12 pm

In other news, one of the trinkets they're adding in 5.2 is really weird. It snapshots your current Haste/Crit/Mastery, and gives you a buff that removes the two lower stats and adds the amount to the highest one. It's going to give some odd interactions - like crit chance being close to zero when it procs Mastery or Haste, which could affect proc rates on other abilities and items. Any toon where Crit/Haste/Mastery are about equal in value will get next to no dps increase from it.

GC made an interesting point regarding Enhancement and the mastery proc's interaction with Ascendance, which could be pretty nice, but at the same time, the loss of Crit and Haste has a negative interaction with Flurry and Unleashed Fury: Windfury.


It'll only affect things like Crit from actual Crit Rating (as opposed to, say, Crit from Agility) so it'll hit subratings, but not quite as hard.
It's still a pretty terrible trinket though on the surface - Bears and BM's will avoid it, Hunters may find it useful, Cat can maybe get use of the Mastery proc and a Dream build to put up some souped builds.

What I can see the trinket allowing (if they don't fix it) is for something like WW's getting the proc, getting Tigereye Brew with the higher Mastery, and then CANCELLING the trinket proc, so they get a persistent buff and then go back to Normal within a few seconds. But that's even more terrible than just being bad, because it's just shitty design to actually use the trinket.

I don't even want to try to figure out what it would do for a feral.


As Feral, you'd be going for MAstery for 200% increased Bleed damage, refresh a Rip/Rake and then probably cancel the buff right away.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Zalaria » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:17 pm

halabar wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:No one said we could only talk about Paladins here. ;) I've been a Shaman main for a couple of years now.


Indeed.. :-)

And I can't see how that trinket would be really useful for any of the agi classes. The trinket would hard-cap MM mastery, while gimping at the same time due to no crit, or push haste past GCD points making much of the increase useless. At best you would want it for crit, but even then the value diminishes with the huge increases. I don't even want to try to figure out what it would do for a feral.


Most ferals go for mastery, I believe. For the duration of the trinket, they'd have increased bleed damage (mastery), reduced energy regen & swing speed (haste), and no extra combo points (crit). Looking at my own feral (ilvl 484), the trinket would give me roughly 2/3 more mastery rating, taking me from ~60% mastery to ~80% on roughly half of my damage sources. 1/8th increase on 1/2 the damage gives 1/16th damage increase from the stat gain portion, roughly +9k dps for the duration given 70k overall dps. That's extremely rough calculation, but seems decent. I'm not sure what effect the stat loss portion would have though. That's harder to guess at.

I can say I'd be annoyed at the lack of extra combo points though. That's already frustrating enough when the RNG does it.




re: cancelling it. Don't dots update to your current stats these days? So if you cancel it, wouldn't your dots lose the bonus damage?


Another interesting thing. According to mmo-champion's database all three versions of the trinket use the same proc effect, meaning the only gain from LFR->normal->heroic is in the agility portion of the trinket.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:19 pm

Stats (Crit etc.) yes. %buffs is another story. Those calculate on application.

It's why Dream of Cenarius works as well as it does when you time the Dream buff to work on your dots.
Last edited by Darielle on Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:19 pm

re: cancelling it. Don't dots update to your current stats these days? So if you cancel it, wouldn't your dots lose the bonus damage?

Usually only update on refresh or application.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Zalaria » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:21 pm

Interesting. Good to know.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:44 pm

Zalaria wrote:Another interesting thing. According to mmo-champion's database all three versions of the trinket use the same proc effect, meaning the only gain from LFR->normal->heroic is in the agility portion of the trinket.


Still, considering the weirdness of that proc, I'd much rather have the:

agi with haste proc, or
mastery with agi proc (plus voodoo gnomes!!!!)

also should be noted that that odd one procs on being hit, so it's possible that for some classes it may not proc at all unless it factors in aoe damage and such, depending on the fight.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fenris » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:47 pm

Oh well,the SoJ change is going to be reverted

I'm sooo surprised.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:22 pm

Another interesting thing. According to mmo-champion's database all three versions of the trinket use the same proc effect, meaning the only gain from LFR->normal->heroic is in the agility portion of the trinket.


While the gain from upgrading your trinket in the proc stays stagnant, your proc scales with all upgrades on any other slots, so the overall scaling is the same.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Newsom » Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:53 pm

Another interesting thing. According to mmo-champion's database all three versions of the trinket use the same proc effect, meaning the only gain from LFR->normal->heroic is in the agility portion of the trinket.


That's not quite how trinket procs work these days. Since MoP, procs scale with the item's item level (and even your character's level I believe). If they hadn't done this, you could potentially cheese challenge modes by using high item level trinkets. Database sites seem to have trouble picking up the scaling properly in their tooltips (armory example).

Edit: took that quote out of context. Disregard my post.
Last edited by Newsom on Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Rhiannon » Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:02 pm

Newsom wrote:
Another interesting thing. According to mmo-champion's database all three versions of the trinket use the same proc effect, meaning the only gain from LFR->normal->heroic is in the agility portion of the trinket.


That's not quite how trinket procs work these days. Since MoP, procs scale with the item's item level (and even your character's level I believe). If they hadn't done this, you could potentially cheese challenge modes by using high item level trinkets. Database sites seem to have trouble picking up the scaling properly in their tooltips (armory example).


He's talking about the agi trinket with the proc that shifts crit/haste/mastery to the highest of the three, and frankly it's kind of obvious that the proc for that one would be the same for all three versions - how exactly would they make it different?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:21 pm

Someone on the official forums suggested something like 80%/100%/120% of your stats, but that has a clear problem - double-dip scaling when it scales off the stats of your other slots AND has a % scalar.

The trinket itself would be better as a "Converts 50% of your low stats, increases this converted amount by 100%, THEN tacks it onto your Highest stat". Then you're actually gaining something. At that point, you could even get into "Converts 50%, up to 2500", and it works out to an exact gain of 5000 free stat (on top of the value of 5000 converted stats), and THEN you can scale on the trinket to go increases by 100%/120%/140%.

It's not bad as a flavour concept, but poorly polished.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:44 am

They're sort of in a hard spot in trinket design. It is tough to make a new and interesting design that beats out the traditional designs.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:17 am

Flex wrote:They're sort of in a hard spot in trinket design. It is tough to make a new and interesting design that beats out the traditional designs.


Same goes for some armor designs.. coughhunterdurrlookwhatIjustkilledI'mwearingitdurrcough...
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