Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Torquemada » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:08 am

aureon wrote:For something tangentially related: Does anyone here subscribe to Austrian economics over Keynesian? if so, why?


No, but I generally subscribe to Neoclassical or Mainstream theory over pure Keynesian.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:35 am

Paxen wrote:
Sagara wrote:I'm going to be grating for the coming line, but bear with me: You're not backed by science *at all*. Science doesn't give jack sh*t whether weather pattern exist because of random chance or intelligent creation. The pattern can be observed, and it and its root causes can be explained and detailed by other patterns that are similarly observed and explained. That's it, end of story.


But he is. Science doesn't concern itself with stuff that's unobservable and unproveable. So, with respects to science, god doesn't exist. Because there's no sign of him/her/it/them.


Slight differenciation: with respects to science, god has no influence - it cannot be measured, cannot be felt.

Stolen from Wiwkipedia's page on the Evidence_of_absence: Cambridge companion to Atheism:
[Advocates] of the presumption of atheism... insist that it is precisely the absence of evidence for theism that justifies their claim that God des not exist. The problem with such a position is captured neatly by the aphorism, beloved of forensic scientists, that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." The absence of evidence is evidence of absence only in case in which, were the postulated entity to exist, we should expect to have more evidence of its existence than we do.


In short, the best the scientific method can announce is "Given how little proof there exist for the existence of a higher power, it is likely this higher power does not exist, although its non-existence cannot reliably be demonstrated."

Which by the way, also means that religious organisation had better shut their hole when babbling about how the Bible is "proof" of anything.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:41 am

Are we going to have to drag out the invisible, intangible chair metaphor here? Don't make me drag out the chair.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:00 am

Please do. The worst part is I'm a soft atheist, so I'm actually digging up counterpoints against myself.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:42 am

Shoju wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that's OK to use such language because the bible does the same thing?  Do you always treat people by association with a demographic?  I find that appalling.  It's at the root of some of the worst sorts of behavior of mankind.


I'm not suggesting that. Are you saying that t's appalling when I say it, but when a Religion's Text says it, it's ok? That the Bible and "God" can paint all of humanity in broad strokes, and that's ok, but when Shoju says it on a forum, WATCHOUT! That's appalling?
You are obviously not paying attention. Of course I think those sorts of comments are appalling regardless of the source. I have no particular need to defend the bible.

Shoju wrote:You're right, it is at the heart of some of the worst sorts of behavior that Mankind has ever seen. The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, The Holocaust. It was all centered around treating people by association...
Is it right? no.
Is it fair? no.
Is it what people do? Yes. I'm even guilty of it at times.
So stop it. You're not a mindless drone. It is not like it's remotely difficult to not do it, and you seem to recognize the seriousness of that line of thinking. I doubt you do it around the more "politically correct" topics, so just don't it with religion either.
 
Shoju wrote:They are BANKING on the idea, that Hell is scary enough to keep you in line. MANY Conservative Christian Churches would label everything I posted as a sin.
Then they'll be bankrupt. In the westernized world where churches no longer control the police and military, where information is easily accessible, you aren't going to pull masses of people into a faith for long based on fear and intimidation. It always ultimately fails. You're proof that's it's not very effective. Adults who stick with it are choosing too, whether through agreement or indifference, it's a choice.

Shoju wrote:If you Sin, and don't repent, you go to hell. Period.
I don't really think that matters, but as an aside...My understanding of the protestant side of the house is that, that is really not true, in fact it strikes at one of the major separations between Catholics and protestants. That is the notion that going to heaven isn't based on deeds, it's based on the acceptance of Christ as your savior. Once you've done that, you're saved and not going to hell. Am I misunderstanding that? Does that mean that anyone who dies sort of unexpectedly and without time to repent is almost certainly going to hell? Now Catholics are more complicated, with "meritorious" deeds (and maybe even purgatory) being added to the equation, but that said, no they don't believe that if you jack off and don't repent, that you're going to hell. At least the catholic church my mother made me go to never taught anything close to that, and they have their hierarchy that reaches up to the Vatican, so I'd assume that they aren't freeforming it.

Again, none of that is important to my point, and this isn't the place for a theological education, if you (or anyone else) have any reading you'd like to impart on me, do it via PM. I'm genuinely curious.

Shoju wrote:That's not a far leap to make. Consider, that if I were wrong in assuming that the majority of those in a religious setting want the safety and security of being "shepherded" that we would see far more pastors, and far less people in the pew. Far less Super Churches, Far more smaller Churches.

My life and religion sucked. It was terrible. I could write a novel about the batshit insane ideas that were shoved in my head as a kid and teenager.
Not a far leap? Far leap is a ridiculous understatement. Projecting your experience of religion, which you admit to being batshit insane onto the rest of the planet...I can't imagine a leap any further than that.

Shoju wrote:Maybe my beef is with a very vocal minority.
No one I know that is religious seems to act out of fear. Those that have talked to me about it, don't attempt to intimidate me, they are concerned for me. The more ardent among them, those that question things like carbon dating and evolution do a lot of studying. They have their bibles that they are constantly taking notes in, they attend biblical study groups, and especially the single ones attend all sorts of church functions. Assuming that like the general population most people that I know are probably religious, it's a small percentage that really talk much about it all.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:30 pm

Sagara wrote:Please do.


http://thebarkingatheist.files.wordpres ... 6933_n.jpg

Well, it doesn't completely fit.

But the point is more that if the chair is invisible and intangible, the idea of the chair is pointless.

Also, the burden of proof is on theists. If I say "there is no god, because there is no evidence of it", they can either present evidence, or they can go practice their religion in private where it doesn't bother anybody.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:58 pm

That's two completely different points :)

The concept of a higher power does not bring anything useful to our understanding of the world. But absence of point does not make a thing untrue.

And once again, you fell to the trap of absence of evidence vs evidence of absence. We can easily say: "We have no reason to believe God exists." But unless we are ubermensch, there are still many, many paths of discovery. Maybe we'll find nothing beyond human. Most probably. But it would be foolish pride to pretend we are aboslutely certain.

And that's the fun thing in the debate. Absence of evidence IS evidence of absence only if enough avenues of research have been exhausted to rule out error. But how does one research prrof of a god? It's an immense debate on many, MANY levels.

But I utterly agree on one point - if you want to prove a God exists beyond the shadow of a doubt, you'll need serious evidence to back it up. Otherwise, one should admit it's a belief, that does not possess the scientific method's strengh like many of the theories some crazies try to tear down.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:10 pm

Sagara wrote:And once again, you fell to the trap of absence of evidence vs evidence of absence


I don't think I did. I'm not trying to convince anybody that god doesn't exist. If you believe in god, go ahead. I'm just saying that the coldly logical thing to do is to not believe, and that if you want to impose anything on other people (laws, morality, exceptions that apply to you and such) you should find other arguments than that "it's against my religion".

Not saying that people shouldn't be able to build churches, or not be allowed a little time off to pray when required (Islam mainly), but that arguments for morality and laws that are based on your religion are not valid. Believe what you will, act on it if you want, but don't force me (or anybody else).

As for the logical bit, humans aren't logical, so I'm fine with other people believing in some kind of supernatural stuff. Just don't accuse me of being illogical when I say I'm an atheist.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:54 pm

Sagara wrote:I'm going to be grating for the coming line, but bear with me: You're not backed by science *at all*. Science doesn't give jack sh*t whether weather pattern exist because of random chance or intelligent creation. The pattern can be observed, and it and its root causes can be explained and detailed by other patterns that are similarly observed and explained. That's it, end of story.

That leaves me with two conclusions:

1: A higher power does not exist.
2: A higher power exists but does nothing to influence the physical world.

Either way, I'm safe not believing in him.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:58 pm

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/02/ ... ith-obama/

Bizarro Fox News

PS. Apparently, I'm the only one talking actual politics in the last 5 pages or so... XD
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Dantriges » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:52 pm

I expected more Obama conspiracy stuff but this article was rather insightful and moderate, considering that FoxNews is rather biased.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:17 am

Koatanga wrote:
Sagara wrote:I'm going to be grating for the coming line, but bear with me: You're not backed by science *at all*. Science doesn't give jack sh*t whether weather pattern exist because of random chance or intelligent creation. The pattern can be observed, and it and its root causes can be explained and detailed by other patterns that are similarly observed and explained. That's it, end of story.

That leaves me with two conclusions:

1: A higher power does not exist.
2: A higher power exists but does nothing to influence the physical world.

Either way, I'm safe not believing in him.


Pretty much my own conclusions so far.
When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:24 am

The article was brilliant.

She's not your typical Fox Talking Head, though. Wikipedia describes her as a liberal political commentator, and she's also been on MSNBC and contributes to the Huffington Post.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:53 am

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby aureon » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:10 am

Klaudandus wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/02/12/republicans-need-to-quit-complaining-and-start-cooperating-with-obama/

Bizarro Fox News

PS. Apparently, I'm the only one talking actual politics in the last 5 pages or so... XD

How did that end up on fox news?
there's, like, DATA, CORRECT INFORMATION!
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