Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:30 pm

Sagara wrote:Please do.


http://thebarkingatheist.files.wordpres ... 6933_n.jpg

Well, it doesn't completely fit.

But the point is more that if the chair is invisible and intangible, the idea of the chair is pointless.

Also, the burden of proof is on theists. If I say "there is no god, because there is no evidence of it", they can either present evidence, or they can go practice their religion in private where it doesn't bother anybody.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:58 pm

That's two completely different points :)

The concept of a higher power does not bring anything useful to our understanding of the world. But absence of point does not make a thing untrue.

And once again, you fell to the trap of absence of evidence vs evidence of absence. We can easily say: "We have no reason to believe God exists." But unless we are ubermensch, there are still many, many paths of discovery. Maybe we'll find nothing beyond human. Most probably. But it would be foolish pride to pretend we are aboslutely certain.

And that's the fun thing in the debate. Absence of evidence IS evidence of absence only if enough avenues of research have been exhausted to rule out error. But how does one research prrof of a god? It's an immense debate on many, MANY levels.

But I utterly agree on one point - if you want to prove a God exists beyond the shadow of a doubt, you'll need serious evidence to back it up. Otherwise, one should admit it's a belief, that does not possess the scientific method's strengh like many of the theories some crazies try to tear down.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:10 pm

Sagara wrote:And once again, you fell to the trap of absence of evidence vs evidence of absence


I don't think I did. I'm not trying to convince anybody that god doesn't exist. If you believe in god, go ahead. I'm just saying that the coldly logical thing to do is to not believe, and that if you want to impose anything on other people (laws, morality, exceptions that apply to you and such) you should find other arguments than that "it's against my religion".

Not saying that people shouldn't be able to build churches, or not be allowed a little time off to pray when required (Islam mainly), but that arguments for morality and laws that are based on your religion are not valid. Believe what you will, act on it if you want, but don't force me (or anybody else).

As for the logical bit, humans aren't logical, so I'm fine with other people believing in some kind of supernatural stuff. Just don't accuse me of being illogical when I say I'm an atheist.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:54 pm

Sagara wrote:I'm going to be grating for the coming line, but bear with me: You're not backed by science *at all*. Science doesn't give jack sh*t whether weather pattern exist because of random chance or intelligent creation. The pattern can be observed, and it and its root causes can be explained and detailed by other patterns that are similarly observed and explained. That's it, end of story.

That leaves me with two conclusions:

1: A higher power does not exist.
2: A higher power exists but does nothing to influence the physical world.

Either way, I'm safe not believing in him.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:58 pm

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/02/ ... ith-obama/

Bizarro Fox News

PS. Apparently, I'm the only one talking actual politics in the last 5 pages or so... XD
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Dantriges » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:52 pm

I expected more Obama conspiracy stuff but this article was rather insightful and moderate, considering that FoxNews is rather biased.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:17 am

Koatanga wrote:
Sagara wrote:I'm going to be grating for the coming line, but bear with me: You're not backed by science *at all*. Science doesn't give jack sh*t whether weather pattern exist because of random chance or intelligent creation. The pattern can be observed, and it and its root causes can be explained and detailed by other patterns that are similarly observed and explained. That's it, end of story.

That leaves me with two conclusions:

1: A higher power does not exist.
2: A higher power exists but does nothing to influence the physical world.

Either way, I'm safe not believing in him.


Pretty much my own conclusions so far.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:24 am

The article was brilliant.

She's not your typical Fox Talking Head, though. Wikipedia describes her as a liberal political commentator, and she's also been on MSNBC and contributes to the Huffington Post.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:53 am

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby aureon » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:10 am

Klaudandus wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/02/12/republicans-need-to-quit-complaining-and-start-cooperating-with-obama/

Bizarro Fox News

PS. Apparently, I'm the only one talking actual politics in the last 5 pages or so... XD

How did that end up on fox news?
there's, like, DATA, CORRECT INFORMATION!
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:15 pm

It looks like she's a token liberal they bring on now and then to give the impression of balance.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:33 am

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:06 am

First; new Crowd Chart since its been at least 6 pages since it was last posted.

Been away for a few days visiting family (well "in-law" family - quotationmarks as we are still "only" engaged)

Paxen; I'll turn that argument on its head:
There is one or more gods, and humanity having believed so for millenia, means your statement of the absence of such an entity is the one requiring proof.

As to the 2 conclusions from Koatanga;

3: A higher power exists, and influences the physical world, but we are not able to percieve the influence as it is done methodically and can be explained and predicted. (Think of the higher power(s) as OCD for instance)
4: A higher power exists and merely set the rules for how things work (as described by science), to observe us (((and judge us worthy or not, if you want to add that part in as well)))


Now for politics;
How do you foresee the selection of a new pope/retirement of the current to go down, what consequences will it have for the catholic church, which encompasses about 1/6th the worlds population?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:40 am

Image
well, seeing how the Queen isn't retiring...

and if ratzinger is burned out, is due to his own incompetence... seeing how as a cardinal he was active participant in the cover-up of pederast clergymen

Ok, that wasn't aimed at me, but I felt like throwing me two cents =P
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:41 am

Nooska wrote:Paxen; I'll turn that argument on its head:
There is one or more gods, and humanity having believed so for millenia, means your statement of the absence of such an entity is the one requiring proof.


No. People are fallible - that everybody believes something does not make it correct, not in religion and not anywhere else. I refer you to Kejserens nye klæder.

Now for politics;
How do you foresee the selection of a new pope/retirement of the current to go down, what consequences will it have for the catholic church, which encompasses about 1/6th the worlds population?


Not sure if will have any big consequences. It's eminently sensible (the Pope steps down when he can't do the job anymore), and the Catholic Church is the expert at spinning things so that how they do it now is how they've always done it, regardless of fatcs.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:45 am

It also amuses me that... you know, being the man closest to god on earth, according to the precepts of that faith, he didn't ask god for extra strength?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Dantriges » Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:35 am

Paxen wrote:Not sure if will have any big consequences. It's eminently sensible (the Pope steps down when he can't do the job anymore), and the Catholic Church is the expert at spinning things so that how they do it now is how they've always done it, regardless of fatcs.


Ehm, they already admitted that it has been over 700 years since a pope retired. Not sure, could be the last one was one of the three popes during the schism. Remember something about one of them steping down vluntarily, the other two being declared as "never has been a pope."

It also amuses me that... you know, being the man closest to god on earth, according to the precepts of that faith, he didn't ask god for extra strength?


He probably did or do you have special insight into the pope´s evening prayers? Perhaps he felt that God is ok with him passing on the burden. Not that I think that God appeared for evening tea and said "Hey bub, you can take it easy now and get a young whippersnapper og 65 on the throne", just that he was praying and meditating on the issue and got to this conclusion.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:40 am

Considering the opulence he lives in (surprised he doesnt have a mini giraffe)... it's quite dissonant that he gets a break, but the poorest of the catholics don't get that break.

It's not like the single mom stuck with 3 kids and living quite poorly in Philippines (as an example) can just say "I'm gonna retire from being poor"
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:45 am

Actually, its only 598 years since the last time a pope abdicated (it was in 1415), but yeah.

Though the argument that "God decides when a pope is done" can still be used "It was divinely inspired".

"People are fallible - that everybody believes something does not make it correct, not in religion and not anywhere else."
People are fallible - that some people believe something does not make it correct, not in religion and not anywhere else.

That argument is correct, but also cuts both ways.
Oh, and Kejserens Nye Klæder (The Emperors New Clothes) is not about people believeing, but people, including the emperor, and all his advisors, being ashamed to be ridiculed, as the conmen tell them that only the stupid can't see the clothes, and none of the people want to "admit" that they are stupid - it also exists in a world where magic is real, which is how the clothes work, so reference failed :-P
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:49 am

Nooska wrote:so reference failed :-P


Meh. The clothes never existed, it's clear that it's a con by the tailors. And they would never have existed, even if the beggar boy never pointed out that the emperor had no clothes on. Even if everybody said it did.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:04 am

Yes, its clear to the reader, and I agree to a certain point, but the morale of the story isn't "it isn't true even if everyone believes it", its "Don't be afraid to admit your limitations" or "you need to be unaware of possible consequences to speak truth to power".
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:30 am

KysenMurrin wrote:It looks like she's a token liberal they bring on now and then to give the impression of balance.


Do other stations have token conservatives they bring on now and then to give the impression of balance?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:01 am

Probably. It's a common enough journalistic thing - when they want to show argument between two sides, they often have a few go-to faces who are willing to do it.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:02 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:It looks like she's a token liberal they bring on now and then to give the impression of balance.


Do other stations have token conservatives they bring on now and then to give the impression of balance?


Yes.

I remember Lou Dobbs in CNN for example.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:08 am

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